Growing pains - 8 months - Page 3

I think you need to allow a dog with pano to experience a small amount of pain. Otherwise that dog will abuse itself, not rest as much as it should and rest is the key to the self cure.  We used to prescribe only aspirin rather than getting out the big guns like Rimadyl. Aspirin and forced rest usually did the trick and in a month or less most puppies were over that painful stage although a few did regress now and then; back to square one. Forced rest means a lot of time in a crate.

OCD (Osteochondritis Dissecans) shares the same symptoms as Pano whether it be elbow or shoulder. Intermittant lameness.

From the world famous Noel Fitzpatrick... http://www.fitzpatrickreferrals.co.uk/our-services/surgery/conditions/fore-limb/shoulder-osteochondritis-dissecans-ocd#what-isosteochondritis-dissecans-ocd

Joan rodo you disagree with me because I said it or because you can document  what you are saying. I would not be as definitive as you are. There are many reasons why the bone may be or turn soft. Yours is just a theory same is mine.  Pano is by a definition an inflammation of a long bone the reasons are not known 100% but vets generally agree with what I am saying.  Which is the bone grows too fast and is then too soft to support the dog. It then logically follows that if the bone is too soft it bends in microscopic way  abut it does so though.  Since that bending is unnatural the body responds by inflammation. 

 Here is a article quote from this link

http://www.vcahospitals.com/main/pet-health-information/article/animal-health/panosteitis-in-dogs/1051

with my notes in red and supporting text with yellow highlight.

Panosteitis is a painful inflammation of the outer surface or shaft ( and not of a bone marrow as you say) of one or more long bones of the legs. It is sometimes called "growing pains." Panosteitis may occur in more than one bone at a time or may move around from area to area, cause a "shifting" lameness that goes from one bone or leg to another. The lameness tends to occur very suddenly and usually occurs spontaneously, or without a history of trauma or excessive exercise.

Are all dogs affected with this condition? 

Panosteitis is a condition that affects young, rapidly growing dogs. (as I have stated)Although it can occur in any breed of dog, larger breeds, such as German Shepherds (most common), Great Danes, Golden Retrievers, Labrador Retrievers, Rottweilers, Doberman Pinschers, and Basset Hounds, are more prone to this problem. Affected dogs are usually between 5 and 14 months of age, but the first symptoms may occur as early as 2 months of age or as late as 18 months of age. Males seem to be affected more often than females, although either sex can develop panosteitis. Affected dogs often have recurrent episodes of panosteitis until they reach 2 years of age, at which time it will spontaneously resolve.

What is the cause?

Panosteitis is a painful condition, and the pain is likely caused by increased pressure within the bone, and/or by stimulation of pain receptors in the periosteum, or outer, soft tissue lining of the bone.( same as I am saying)  The underlying cause of panosteitis is unknown, but genetics, stress, infection, metabolism, or an autoimmune component may be factors. Since German Shepherds seem to be particularly predisposed to panosteitis, there may be a genetic component to the disease, at least in this breed. It has also been suggested that rapid growth and high-protein, high-calcium diets may predispose some dogs to this condition.

Abby Normal. Meat has all the nutrition and minerals in bioavailable natural form. Do never supplement Calcium or any other minerals alone. Best supplement is meat. You can not come ven close to it with any pil are granulated crap in  a shine beg called balanced food.  Meat is  is what Canidae since  creation of the Canidae about 50 million(!!!) years ago. Do not listen to pill pusher who is here only to sell you pill or granulated dog food. 

 Also keep in mind this. wild Canidae family ( wolfs, coyote, jackals, foxes,...) do not have balanced food in short term but that do have balanced food in long term.  What that means is that in wild they eat variety of foods which by them selves are not balanced like bugs, or berries or lizards you name it but all together they provide complete nutrition. Thus the  coyote for example will supply nutrition "A" from bugs and tomorrow  they will get nutrition "B" from lizards and so on.... Thus the bones are growing slowly and are very dense. I hike in the desert and often see bones of coyote or other wildlife. They are superbly dense in comparison to domestic animals like dogs or cows . Cats have very dense bones which may be caused bu the fact that they may eat what they catch more then dogs. Genetics I am sure  have a lot  to do  with it but genetics are just predisposing condition and environment is forming condition. And at this time  I am talking here only about environmental influence since that what we can influence in our already born dog.  

 As far as chicken feed goes they are the best source of bioavailable glucosomine, chondroitin sulfate , MSM and hyaluronic acid . One old Gypsy told me that 55 years ago on RR station in Slovakia as a remedy for arthritis for my grandmother. Chicken gristle from mainly cihcken feet and orange juce. Lo and behold I  read scientific article on this few yeas back which confirmed by million dollars study what the Gipsy knew long time ago. 

Joanro where in God's name did you read and I quote:

"SS, a pup being overweight is not likely to cause "soft bones" ,"  who said that  weight would cause soft bones???? 

Sheesh yes cause of the pano is scientific mystery but my and other breeders empirical knowledge and common sense support what Duke and I am saying over here. There is not funding to  scientifically proof that. that is  since these studies are usually financed with purpose by investors with a lot of money and ax to grind = dog food companies.  And that will not tell you to feed meat. 

 As far a genetics and environment i have already touched on that above.  Most conditions are genetically predisposed and environmentally induced. Breeders and influence genetics and dog owner may be able  influence the environment ( food in this case) . If it would not be so then we could feed genetically  flawless  dogs saw dust and they would turn superb specimen. We all know that that is not so. 

 Prager Hans

Blitzen you are right pain is good. it keeps the dog from doing what is should not. But too much pain will depress the dog and too much inflammation may become chronic . Inflammation is  good but  too much of it may be self perpetuating. Children coated aspirin is good start.  

 Some vets are saying that keeping the dog quiet is a good thing but exercise is what makes strong dense bones., Thus I think ( MO)  that in this case to suppress the inflammation and thus pain by meds and let the pup exercise and be           more active  is the good way to go since in case of pano,  the activity in not known to  hurt the pup. This is not necessarily so where in cases where  conditions were the caused by pain , like injury necessitate restricted motion.  

 Prager Hans

Too much activity can delay the healing process. All pups with pano are going to recover spontaniously with or without drugs unless there is something else going on in the joint.

There is never money available to study a condition/disease like pano. It is not lifethreatening and is self curing. A nuisance disease albeit very painful for the dog.

Prager

Thanks for your reply. Myself I have fed raw for many many years. I don't feed kibble of any kind. Inherently I agree with what you said, my only query really was in what you had mentioned was there enought bone in the chicken feet to give a sufficient amount of calcium to a pup or young dog in the growth phase. Since you were talking about cooked meat (not something I have done) I wondered what was providing the calcium, as you couldn't be feeding cooked bones. Balance over time is a well known phrase to those who feed raw, as it is not logical to try and balance each and every meal. 

Last year I adopted an older and very overweight GSD, who had 'allergies' and had been fed an appalling diet. She is now slim and loving her raw food which I switched her onto almost immediately. Also - no allergies any more.

Shiny bags do nothing for me LOL, and it doesn't surprise me that an old gipsy could be proved right so many years later. Many old intuitively held medical and nutritional ideas considered 'folklore' are often 'discovered' later by science.