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by ramgsd on 23 October 2012 - 21:10
You can't start a thread that says "opinions please" then say "I don,t care what what people say." Espeacially on the PDB. You asked for it Bob. 
You know the dogs, so I hope it turns out the way you want.
Good luck.
Rick
You know the dogs, so I hope it turns out the way you want.Good luck.
Rick
by Bob McKown on 23 October 2012 - 23:10
Keith:
I respect your opinion and had I not wantted to hear it I would not of asked. Let me talk to a couple points. All my dogs have been evaluated before the age of 2 thru prelims by a Ortho surgeon. Up to date on all health requirements and vet checked by my vet on a consistent bases. My Axel (who I owned from10 weeks old) is OfA good hips and on the OFA site it says elbow grade 1 DJD I also have elbow evaluation at the age of 7 staing that the dog shows no signs of any elbow abnormality and appear normal . My first bred female Cayla (owned from 12 weeks of age) was OFA good and clear elbows. Holly(who I owned at 9 months) has been prelimed and will be OFA,d this month. I,ve owned all of my dogs from pups that I have bred, They have been worked thru all 3 phases temperment tested. I,ve owned the same line of dogs and bred to the same line of dogs and lived with the same line of dogs for 11.5 years. In that time i,ve talked to sibling owners,the breeders of the parents the breeder of siblinds and sent and read more emails about my dogs and there lines then I care to admit. No i,m not a big time breeder who buys a dog that is 2 or 3 years old that has had all the foundation put in it by god knows who and finish it,s training and title it.and claim that it is the be all end all of the breed. I don,t breed to multiple dogs that i have bought from abroad titled by god knows who judged by god knows who (wink wink nod nod) with these females placed all over gods green creation. I don,t make my living off selling and marketing dogs I don,t ever want to be that kind of dogman. I don,t believe anyone with a dollar deserves a GSD I,m not trying to keep up with anyone that is where the slippery slope really starts. The slippery slope started many years ago when Germany forgot that the GSD is a working dog. It was conceived and bred for a job that worked and allowed men (yes men with more years as me, as you said) make drastic changes in the breeding, temperment and structre of the dog that took away it,s working abality. Men who put money and fame at a higher premium then the important job they recieved of preserving the breed. Because these men allowed the breed to slowly spiral downward they took a test specifically designed to test for breed worthiness, temperment, and physical abality and slowly and methodicaly took those things that have any semblence of working judgeability and removed this. Why would they do that? the truth is that as the breed spiraled downward the test would cull out those unable to pass it, there only 2 options were breed a dog that was fit enough to pass or lower the standard that it,s judged by and we all know what won out. I,ve said this before the definition of "work" really needs to be assessed before 1 thinks a IPO title say this dog is truly breed worthy.
Ram:
I probaly was politcaly in correvt in saying "I don,t care" and should of said I have thick skin and can handle opposing opinions. I thank you for making me aware.
I respect your opinion and had I not wantted to hear it I would not of asked. Let me talk to a couple points. All my dogs have been evaluated before the age of 2 thru prelims by a Ortho surgeon. Up to date on all health requirements and vet checked by my vet on a consistent bases. My Axel (who I owned from10 weeks old) is OfA good hips and on the OFA site it says elbow grade 1 DJD I also have elbow evaluation at the age of 7 staing that the dog shows no signs of any elbow abnormality and appear normal . My first bred female Cayla (owned from 12 weeks of age) was OFA good and clear elbows. Holly(who I owned at 9 months) has been prelimed and will be OFA,d this month. I,ve owned all of my dogs from pups that I have bred, They have been worked thru all 3 phases temperment tested. I,ve owned the same line of dogs and bred to the same line of dogs and lived with the same line of dogs for 11.5 years. In that time i,ve talked to sibling owners,the breeders of the parents the breeder of siblinds and sent and read more emails about my dogs and there lines then I care to admit. No i,m not a big time breeder who buys a dog that is 2 or 3 years old that has had all the foundation put in it by god knows who and finish it,s training and title it.and claim that it is the be all end all of the breed. I don,t breed to multiple dogs that i have bought from abroad titled by god knows who judged by god knows who (wink wink nod nod) with these females placed all over gods green creation. I don,t make my living off selling and marketing dogs I don,t ever want to be that kind of dogman. I don,t believe anyone with a dollar deserves a GSD I,m not trying to keep up with anyone that is where the slippery slope really starts. The slippery slope started many years ago when Germany forgot that the GSD is a working dog. It was conceived and bred for a job that worked and allowed men (yes men with more years as me, as you said) make drastic changes in the breeding, temperment and structre of the dog that took away it,s working abality. Men who put money and fame at a higher premium then the important job they recieved of preserving the breed. Because these men allowed the breed to slowly spiral downward they took a test specifically designed to test for breed worthiness, temperment, and physical abality and slowly and methodicaly took those things that have any semblence of working judgeability and removed this. Why would they do that? the truth is that as the breed spiraled downward the test would cull out those unable to pass it, there only 2 options were breed a dog that was fit enough to pass or lower the standard that it,s judged by and we all know what won out. I,ve said this before the definition of "work" really needs to be assessed before 1 thinks a IPO title say this dog is truly breed worthy.
Ram:
I probaly was politcaly in correvt in saying "I don,t care" and should of said I have thick skin and can handle opposing opinions. I thank you for making me aware.
by vomeisenhaus on 24 October 2012 - 00:10
One thing you may see line breeding on troll v.h. milinda is longhairs.
by Keith Grossman on 24 October 2012 - 00:10
Thank you, Bob; I appreciate your thoughtful and polite response.
While he haven't yet met in person, we know a lot of the same people and my impression of you from them is that you are generally well respected and have accomplished a lot with your dogs given your relatively short tenure with the breed. I honestly think you probably know enough about what you're looking at to make this call and that this will be a nice litter of healthy, little alligators.
My problem is the precedent that is set when we advertise to the rest of the people who read this forum that they don't need to prove their dogs breedworthy before they throw them together and make puppies. All I see here are people who, rather than looking for reasons not to breed their dogs...which in my opinion should be exactly what we should all be doing...are looking for excuses to do so. When an experienced person comes here and puts forth that the established protocol for breedworthiness is unimportant, they get the creedence they seek to breed crap. That is the slippery slope.
I might also disagree with some of what you've said about those people who have attained success with their dogs following the guidelines, however flawed those guidlines may be. Many of them also have dogs working in law enforcement and/or have been world competitors...long before you learned to spell GSD. They rightfully deserve the respect they have earned in the dogs and in the sport.
Joanro: if the requisites have been so watered down, it should be a cakewalk to get them on your dogs. There are no perfect systems but this is the one we have. Proving nothing about your breeding stock is never better than proving something.
While he haven't yet met in person, we know a lot of the same people and my impression of you from them is that you are generally well respected and have accomplished a lot with your dogs given your relatively short tenure with the breed. I honestly think you probably know enough about what you're looking at to make this call and that this will be a nice litter of healthy, little alligators.
My problem is the precedent that is set when we advertise to the rest of the people who read this forum that they don't need to prove their dogs breedworthy before they throw them together and make puppies. All I see here are people who, rather than looking for reasons not to breed their dogs...which in my opinion should be exactly what we should all be doing...are looking for excuses to do so. When an experienced person comes here and puts forth that the established protocol for breedworthiness is unimportant, they get the creedence they seek to breed crap. That is the slippery slope.
I might also disagree with some of what you've said about those people who have attained success with their dogs following the guidelines, however flawed those guidlines may be. Many of them also have dogs working in law enforcement and/or have been world competitors...long before you learned to spell GSD. They rightfully deserve the respect they have earned in the dogs and in the sport.
Joanro: if the requisites have been so watered down, it should be a cakewalk to get them on your dogs. There are no perfect systems but this is the one we have. Proving nothing about your breeding stock is never better than proving something.
by Jenni78 on 24 October 2012 - 00:10
I bred an untitled dog once. He was more than proven (by a lot tougher standards than an IPO routine would test) in the eyes of those who knew or saw him, but he was untitled nonetheless. I, personally, don't have a problem with making an EXCEPTION to the rule sometimes, as in the case of this dog I speak of. I haven't met a dog I liked more before or since. Any buyers were welcome to test him and were sent xrays for review by their own vets. I think the issue Keith writes of comes into play when it is more than one dog and more than one generation. That, to me, is what might give the impression to the inexperienced that it's ok to just breed 2 purebred dogs and that's where the slippery slope gets even more treacherous. For myself, I don't think I would breed more than one generation untitled. With my titled dogs, I see it as a formality, not what proves their worth. It's more like they're fantastic dogs so I might as well pacify those who can't see for themselves, and make sure they're titled.
I will say I vehemently disagree with those breeding titled dogs who aren't of sound mind and body. I see this A LOT- a dog has major issues and the person is so proud of their accomplisments getting them titled (as well they should be!) that they breed the dog, as if they've forgotten the genetic raw materials of that dog. The training won't pass on favorably to the offspring; what that dog WAS prior to training is the genetic material that will be proliferated, good or bad.
I will say I vehemently disagree with those breeding titled dogs who aren't of sound mind and body. I see this A LOT- a dog has major issues and the person is so proud of their accomplisments getting them titled (as well they should be!) that they breed the dog, as if they've forgotten the genetic raw materials of that dog. The training won't pass on favorably to the offspring; what that dog WAS prior to training is the genetic material that will be proliferated, good or bad.
by joanro on 24 October 2012 - 01:10
Keith, the problem is that it does not ( sch) prove breed worthiness any more. Just because a dog gets a current sch title, doesn't mean the dog has the qualities which represent the breed. I'm not saying that a dog should not be tested in some way to prove breed worthiness, but that a sch title anymore does not carry the validity it once did. A cake walk is not proving anything towards breed worthiness, is my opinion.
by Bob McKown on 24 October 2012 - 01:10
Keith:
And to you, a conversation without profanity and name calling might be a first on the PDB (oh we trend setters)
I do take exception to your reference to breeding dogs that havent proved breed worthy that is the farthest thing from my intention actually just the oppisite. The breed worthiness test is the SCH(IPO) 1 In this test the dog does a 2 blind search and bark and hold and call or walk out, escape grip, lock up with a gaurd, reattack with 2 stick hits and gaurd. heal to the top of the field and a long bite with a drive and a stick hit. Passed the dog is breed worthy.(less the conformation and kore)
If this is the breed worthiness test explain to me where is the stress? It,s a prey excersice. Where is the abality for the dog to think for it,s self and show it? The long bite in my opinion is more prey excersive with the attacker starting from the length of the field yelling twice and running the distance of the field again where is the true stress and pressure that shows the dog think and change drive and make a decision to defend you and it,s self? Are the stick hits stress? 4 smacks from a padded stick? have you ever been hit with the padded stick it,s not painfull. The Sch1 originally had stressors and places where the dogs on there own had to make decisions and show a true working abality. The attack on the handler when done correctly was run from the blind at the handler effective but has been basterized in to another weak run sideways away. Originaly the dog and handler heeled towards the blind in correct posistion and the helper would run from the blind strongly focused directly at the handler with no input to the dog and the dog on it,s own would have to intervein with a attack and hard gripping and fight. Stick hits were with reed sticks and not padded. The long bite started with the helper running away from the dog(prey) and at a judges call the dog was released as the dog closed in on the helper the helper turned and attack the dog with pressure. the dog has to switch drives and show courage and stay in the attack. Would you agree the latter is a better example of a working test? There was also the idea of taking the stick hits out of the tests because of the "animal cruelity and abuse issues" from weenies but it,s not AKC obedience it,s a working dog test.
If your dog can,t jump the vertical wall, take gun shots from a realestic gun simulation, handle the pressure of the items in the latter of my rant. while showing vim and vigor it should not be bred. Where do we find that test? how many expose there dogs to these excersive ? How many times have you heard people say man that gun is loud during the gun shots ?.
If you are real honest after reading this how many can say Yes my dog can handle these task. How many train there dogs with exposier to these ? I say how can your dog be judged breed worhty without them!
IPO is a great international sport title and I respect all those who are at the top of there game. BUt until a REAL test is used to gauge all the GSD,s it,s up to those who will go up and beyond "What is available" to judge there dogs.
And to you, a conversation without profanity and name calling might be a first on the PDB (oh we trend setters)
I do take exception to your reference to breeding dogs that havent proved breed worthy that is the farthest thing from my intention actually just the oppisite. The breed worthiness test is the SCH(IPO) 1 In this test the dog does a 2 blind search and bark and hold and call or walk out, escape grip, lock up with a gaurd, reattack with 2 stick hits and gaurd. heal to the top of the field and a long bite with a drive and a stick hit. Passed the dog is breed worthy.(less the conformation and kore)
If this is the breed worthiness test explain to me where is the stress? It,s a prey excersice. Where is the abality for the dog to think for it,s self and show it? The long bite in my opinion is more prey excersive with the attacker starting from the length of the field yelling twice and running the distance of the field again where is the true stress and pressure that shows the dog think and change drive and make a decision to defend you and it,s self? Are the stick hits stress? 4 smacks from a padded stick? have you ever been hit with the padded stick it,s not painfull. The Sch1 originally had stressors and places where the dogs on there own had to make decisions and show a true working abality. The attack on the handler when done correctly was run from the blind at the handler effective but has been basterized in to another weak run sideways away. Originaly the dog and handler heeled towards the blind in correct posistion and the helper would run from the blind strongly focused directly at the handler with no input to the dog and the dog on it,s own would have to intervein with a attack and hard gripping and fight. Stick hits were with reed sticks and not padded. The long bite started with the helper running away from the dog(prey) and at a judges call the dog was released as the dog closed in on the helper the helper turned and attack the dog with pressure. the dog has to switch drives and show courage and stay in the attack. Would you agree the latter is a better example of a working test? There was also the idea of taking the stick hits out of the tests because of the "animal cruelity and abuse issues" from weenies but it,s not AKC obedience it,s a working dog test.
If your dog can,t jump the vertical wall, take gun shots from a realestic gun simulation, handle the pressure of the items in the latter of my rant. while showing vim and vigor it should not be bred. Where do we find that test? how many expose there dogs to these excersive ? How many times have you heard people say man that gun is loud during the gun shots ?.
If you are real honest after reading this how many can say Yes my dog can handle these task. How many train there dogs with exposier to these ? I say how can your dog be judged breed worhty without them!
IPO is a great international sport title and I respect all those who are at the top of there game. BUt until a REAL test is used to gauge all the GSD,s it,s up to those who will go up and beyond "What is available" to judge there dogs.
by joanro on 24 October 2012 - 02:10
Bob, that was an excellent post and very accurate in every detail. Bravo!
by Keith Grossman on 24 October 2012 - 02:10
I am in absolute agreement the a ScH or IPO title is not an absolute test for breedworthiness but there are no perfect systems and this is the only one we have. We don't rip up roads because of a traffic accident, dismantle the FAA because of a plane crash nor scrap the power grid because of a power outage. And reed hits are no more painful those from a padded stick...just noisier. Adherence to nothing is never a better alternative than adherence to something; it's an excuse.
Yes, we are trend setters indeed! It behooves us to set the right trends.
Edited to add: perhaps we should simply agree to disagree on this issue and move on.
Yes, we are trend setters indeed! It behooves us to set the right trends.
Edited to add: perhaps we should simply agree to disagree on this issue and move on.
by andhourspass on 24 October 2012 - 02:10
Bob, I know nothing about breeding dogs but reading your thoughts has been interesting. I have been a long time lurker on this board and really need to know: Why do you not use apostrophes? In all your text, commas are used in place of apostraphes. Your keyboard must work properly as you frequently use quotes so it is really puzzling (and difficult for me to read.) The apostraphe is the same key as a quote except you don't hit the shift button first. Honest question, not trying to be rude.
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