Thank you - Page 3

He's the one that tried me on and bit through my right cheek. We had a war. His head accidentally went through a wall - I really didn't WANT to do that - were in combat, and it happened. My right hand was broken in 5 places, and several of Clint's teeth were knocked out. Clint was knocked out cold, too. I don't even know how I did that. I guess he just wanted to try me on for size that day - I'm not sure why, but reality is simple: a man and a dog get in a fight. Somebody has to win.

Ha-Ha!  That’s bad-ass Steve!  Still LMAO!  I’m sure it wasn’t funny at the time but it sure seems funny now.  What a visual!

You really need to come on here and share your experiences more often.  You have a lot of old-school knowledge that could help a lot of people I think.  I know you say your fingers aren’t in the best of shape these days but just do what you can.  And don’t take any of this stuff too personally.  Half the time people are just pushing is all just to see where you’re at.  Push back and all will be fine.  You can hold your own I’m sure.

I think Hundmutter was referring to using chains instead of leashes.  At least that’s what it sounded like to me.   

She DID explain herself, and it is as you said: using chains or chain leashes, not using the chains for anything abusive.

Hundmutter (in response to YR) said:

Wasn't really being 'snipy' about the dog chains, although I can see on reflection how it might look that way.  What I meant was (oh its hard to write anything without 3 pages of backstory 1st !) was that if Steve was the 'oldfashioned' dog trainer he appears to be, hanging onto dogs of whatever calibre with loads of chain leads and pinch collars etc etc CAN do your hands in - he made it sound like he has arthritis in his hands which I can identify with.   And I'm old enough to have started out using other than motivational methods and tools, so I've been on the other end of that chain, I know it can do damage !

 

Nevermind...

 

Hundmutter was the one who assumed Steve used chain leashes. Really, it's all there if you read the posts carefully.

I have edited my post above to make it more clear just which part is a DIRECT QUOTE from her post.

Maywood, you want to read something that's REALLY funny, you should read about the time Steve was doing a demo for the police, and the dog ripped his track pants off! 

You know, I think everyone needs to quit walking on egg shells with Steve.  That isn’t going to work.  Hundmutter was trying to bag on him in her first and second post with the “chains thing” and then does a complete reversal after Yellow Rose explains Steve’s personal business.  Steve can see right through that shit just like everyone else can so stop insulting the man’s intelligence.  He knows if you’re speaking how you really feel or if you’re not.  So just say what’s on your mind and just be honest.  If you want to bag on him, then bag on him and stick to your guns.  If you made a mistake and pissed him off then apologize to him.  If you didn’t make a mistake and still pissed him off then don’t apologize.  Just be real and quit trying to sugar coat everything.  That shit isn’t going to fly for very long any way.  He’s too smart for that.

I haven't seen the video or the website and don't know Steve Leigh. I can kind of see where Hundmutter was coming from initially as a lot of people for example Helser can masquerade (or try to) as a genuine dog trainer, just using stupid harsh methods unnecessarily, when in fact they are complete *****. Listening to Steve's descriptions, I can feel the sense of a genuine dog person who respects the animal he is working with too. IMO that never comes across from these pseudo trainers who just *think* they are all that.

I certainly do know that there are dogs out there who cannot be reached by standard methods for whatever reason, and it takes a particularly gifted dog person to know how to reach each of them. Clearly from the descriptions of some of these dogs, they are way beyond the reach of any standard training or day-to-day dog trainer. Steve sounds like he just loves the challenge of these dogs, they would scare the bejesus out of me!
 
Anyhow, I was riveted by the stories about some of the dogs (Marco and Rolf) and would genuinely like to hear more. 

Steve, maybe you could get one of these programs where you can just speak into it and it types the words for you into a word document? Then you could just copy and paste it into the forum?

Some of Steve's stories are particularly interesting to me because they remind me a lot of the years I spent in Germany...the people, culture, clubs, dogs, etc.  I haven't been back since January of '86 but still consider it my home away from home and now find myself wanting to return to see some old friends and make some new ones.

A word of caution about something I read in his story about being bitten by Clint: I, too, have been bitten in the past, agree that sometimes it just comes with the territory and never really thought much about it.  That was until early this year when I got tagged and it got infected.  After a couple of days, my hand and arm had swelled up like a balloon.  What followed was admonishment by doctors who warned me that a deep infection like the one I had could result in the loss of part of the limb and minor surgery to reopen every bite wound.  Rather than letting them check me into the hospital, I agreed to return daily for the next week so they could give me IV antibiotics, remove the packing from all of the wounds and repack them.  I got lucky a lot of times but would now never reccommend anyone not seeing a doctor, at least to get antibiotics, after a dog bite.

A story to consider:

Sunday morning, 5:45am, the phone rings. The man on the other end politely apologized: he had a crisis going.
Male Rott, ~3 years, 110-115 lbs. Let the dog outside, dog refused to come back into house.
Owner went outside to bring dog inside via dog's nylon buckle collar.
Dog nearly killed him. Bit him in at least 12 different places.
Can anything be done? Can he come over right now? Can I help him?
Yes, yes, and yes. Owner is here within 15-20 minutes, with dog in the car.

Jesus. Blood everywhere. I wouldn't let him in my office - didn't want blood on my sofa or chairs. Guy even had blood all over his tennis shoes!
Bec helped clean him up - peroxide, clean towels, more peroxide. Time to talk. Fairly short conversation: dog has been aggressive for well over a year. He HAS bitten before, but not this bad. Dog has never had his ass kicked. Man doesn't own a slip or prong - nylon only. Nylon leash, too. 

Well, folks - today's the day.  
The fuc**** dog is on MY property now.

Loaned owner 2 HEAVY slip collars, leather leash, and gave him instructions. 2 lines on the dog - owner with 6' leather leash, me with 30' longline.
Explained ALPHA ROLL, grip dog's cheeks, THROW dog on his back, SIT on dog's chest - DO NOT LOOSEN GRIP ON DOG'S CHEEKS.
Loosen grip = INSTANT wrist bites - absolutely guaranteed. I've seen it 25 times.

Showed owner how to make leash corrections: short, hard SNAP. Ready? Go put both slip collars on, take off that piece of nylon shit, get your ass back in here to my training field. And make it quick.

Start marching - "box" pattern, right turns only, GOOD correction at every right turn. I'M in the middle of the "box" pattern with long line connected to 2nd slip collar.

It only took a minute, the dog went on the owner. Owner steps OUTSIDE "box" area, AS INSTRUCTED, and we BOTH string up the dog.
NOW we gonna play this game MY way.

Owner followed my directions GOOD, while I kept the dog strung up on his hind legs. He got a hell of a grip on dog's face, threw him down on his back and "climbed aboard". I kept encouraging owner - "DO NOT LOOSEN GRIP". Now - he pounds the dog's head into the grass a few (hundred) times, and I "helped" a little. I used a 2" round wooden dowel (it was a retrieve object, but some might think it was like a tiny baseball bat) - and beat that MF dog's ass until he shit all over himself - and his owner's legs - this WHILE his head was being progressively banged down to China. You could hear the dog screaming a block away.
 
ATTENTION: the dog was ONLY hit in the fatty muscle of his hind leg. I wrote "ass" - that is NOT LITERALLY correct. NO WAY am I gonna break a bone, hit a dog's SPINE, or do any REAL damage. I've done this 400+ times, and I know EXACTLY how to do it.

This dog NEEDED to feel PAIN. I climbed on him, too, but this was TOTALLY an "OWNER/DOG" problem. I couldn't do the alpha - the owner had to be alpha.

Well - time to climb off.
My "dominant attitude" was turned "ON" - the adrenaline was UP.  I didn't WANT that asshole dog to get up yet. Let him lay in his shit, and wait until I FEEL like letting him up. Told owner just to kick him right back down if he tried to stand or roll over, AND - if he aggressed, we're gonna do the same thing again - TWICE as bad - TWICE as long - AND I'm gonna turn off his sciatic nerves .... which means, basically, his hind legs WILL NOT FUNCTION.  THAT means he's gonna drag himself around on his front legs, cause the back ones just won't work for awhile. (Talk to most any cop about the proper use of their ASP BATON - designed (with training) to put a criminal on the ground, INSTANTLY. NON-FUNCTIONAL legs. Y'all probably know I took an ASP baton course.     

It took a kick or two, and the dog just laid there on his back - belly up.
OK! I'll be damned! Maybe the dog has a brain after all. 
Bec, please bring me some iced tea, and one for this guy who's bleeding to death all over our yard.
(Honey? What's our liability limit if this guy drops dead out here?) 

Now we go do "boxes" again. This time, snatch the dog's head off on corners. I WANTED to push a 3 YEAR OLD, with years of doing things HIS way, into trying aggression again.

Nope. No aggression. Dog's tail (what there was of it) resembled a hairy thermometer trying to climb in his ass. Mission accomplished. We sent the owner to the hospital to get those bites fixed up right.
Normal, WEEKDAY price for this type problem - $2,500.00 minimum. I didn't charge this guy.
He started coming out to train on Monday night, (the NEXT NIGHT!!!!!) and did GOOD. I had to laugh - he was covered with bandages. So I called him "Mummy".

Dog never DREAMED of biting him again.

Am I cruel? Did I solve a problem? Did I save that dog's life? You bet your ass I saved his life. 
Steve Leigh
 

Maybe the owner's too!

Even Barbara Woodhouse, famous for her 'walkies!' would string up bad-assed dog that NEEDED to learn who the Alpha in the pack was!