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by Slamdunc on 15 February 2012 - 17:02
I view hardness as a dog's ability to overcome an adverse situation, and how it reacts afterwards and how quickly it recovers. The dog's ability to handle a negative stimulus and it's ability to bounce back unphased. It is a matter of resiliency and how long it takes the dog to recover. The dog experiences a negative situation and it's ability to overcome that adversity and stay in drive and continue on task. Hardness covers many areas, including corrections and fight drive. All dogs have some degree of hardness, no dogs have unlimited hardness. When evaluating dogs, I rate in on a scale of 0 to 10. Just like any other drive, desire or behavior.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
JMO FWIW,
Jim
by Ace952 on 15 February 2012 - 18:02
And this is what makes this topic difficult. What one person sees as hard, another sees as just a regular dog. There are tons of purple thsy come on this site and swear up and down that they have a hard dog that is fearless and they need a boat oar for the dog to feel a correction. Then later you realize that many owners don't know how to properly handle a dog so in their mind, they have a "hard dog". Add to that improper training.
by Slamdunc on 15 February 2012 - 20:02
Ace,
Are you posting from an IPhone by any chance? Auto correct can be a PITA.
Then later you realize that many owners don't know how to properly handle a dog so in their mind, they have a "hard dog".
That is very true, a hard correction from one person's perspective may simply be nagging the dog from another's point of view or more importantly the dog's. Because some dogs do not respond to the handler's correction does not necessarily make it a "hard dog," IMO. Giving the doggie finger to a handler who is trying to correct their dog does not make the dog hard. Put the leash in the hands of someone who knows how to deliver a correction properly and effectively, then you will see how the dog responds. There have been many times I have met people who describe how hard their dog is. I have watched them work their dogs and realized the dog is a "4" and their corrections are a "2." When I take the leash and give the dog a "5 or 6" correction, suddenly the dog responds and the problem stops.
Hardness is not only related to corrections but any adverse situation. I did some scenario based training yesterday utilizing blanks in a shotgun and a 38. Super loud blanks that I needed to wear ear pro inside a building. We also had 9 mm Simunition rounds. Handlers and Officers from our PD and another agency were dispatched to search a building and given eye pro and Sim guns. This immediately gets the handlers and Officers adrenaline pumping because the 9MM plastic paint rounds hurt, more than a paint ball gun. Getting hit leaves bruises, couple with the fact that if I am the bad guy and if I can see your thigh, arm, hand, or chest I will shoot you there. I avoided head shots, just to be kind. When they entered the building they were greeted by shotgun rounds, then 38 blank fire. This amped the dogs up, who were muzzled, no equipment to bite. Just me to fight for a prolonged engagement. This was an old school converted for training with several connecting rooms off hall ways. It is possible for me to outrun a dog on tile floors for a good distance. Smart handlers did a covert clear on a 30' line. Handlers that sent their dogs prematurely "lost' their dogs. I would have the dog chase me into a room, juke the dog and fight it hard for a few seconds then lock the dog in the room and leave. It is a little unnerving for a handler who just sent his dog to not know where it is or be able to call it back. They did not know what to expect as this was an evolving scenario based on what they did. The dogs were stressed form a quick fight, lots of gunshots and now being locked in a room and most never experiencing that before. Once the officers cleared to where their dog was they could release the dog and resend him which resulted in a 3 minute or longer extended confrontation. Sometimes with me still shooting at the handlers / Officers while fighting their dog. You could see who the "hard" dogs were, still fighting and engaging me, with out their handler as support and gun shots going off. The dogs that did not muzzle fight hard initially were convinced to fight hard. A very interesting training scenario from several standpoints. It is better to make mistakes in training and get shot than on the street. I am banged up, scratched and bruised from fighting seven dogs in a row and many people shooting me. I know some of the handlers saw things they liked and expected from their dogs, some saw things that were not so great. As far as ability to handle that stress, on the hardness scale I saw some "6's" and I saw some "8's." I didn't see any "10's."
Are you posting from an IPhone by any chance? Auto correct can be a PITA.
Then later you realize that many owners don't know how to properly handle a dog so in their mind, they have a "hard dog".
That is very true, a hard correction from one person's perspective may simply be nagging the dog from another's point of view or more importantly the dog's. Because some dogs do not respond to the handler's correction does not necessarily make it a "hard dog," IMO. Giving the doggie finger to a handler who is trying to correct their dog does not make the dog hard. Put the leash in the hands of someone who knows how to deliver a correction properly and effectively, then you will see how the dog responds. There have been many times I have met people who describe how hard their dog is. I have watched them work their dogs and realized the dog is a "4" and their corrections are a "2." When I take the leash and give the dog a "5 or 6" correction, suddenly the dog responds and the problem stops.
Hardness is not only related to corrections but any adverse situation. I did some scenario based training yesterday utilizing blanks in a shotgun and a 38. Super loud blanks that I needed to wear ear pro inside a building. We also had 9 mm Simunition rounds. Handlers and Officers from our PD and another agency were dispatched to search a building and given eye pro and Sim guns. This immediately gets the handlers and Officers adrenaline pumping because the 9MM plastic paint rounds hurt, more than a paint ball gun. Getting hit leaves bruises, couple with the fact that if I am the bad guy and if I can see your thigh, arm, hand, or chest I will shoot you there. I avoided head shots, just to be kind. When they entered the building they were greeted by shotgun rounds, then 38 blank fire. This amped the dogs up, who were muzzled, no equipment to bite. Just me to fight for a prolonged engagement. This was an old school converted for training with several connecting rooms off hall ways. It is possible for me to outrun a dog on tile floors for a good distance. Smart handlers did a covert clear on a 30' line. Handlers that sent their dogs prematurely "lost' their dogs. I would have the dog chase me into a room, juke the dog and fight it hard for a few seconds then lock the dog in the room and leave. It is a little unnerving for a handler who just sent his dog to not know where it is or be able to call it back. They did not know what to expect as this was an evolving scenario based on what they did. The dogs were stressed form a quick fight, lots of gunshots and now being locked in a room and most never experiencing that before. Once the officers cleared to where their dog was they could release the dog and resend him which resulted in a 3 minute or longer extended confrontation. Sometimes with me still shooting at the handlers / Officers while fighting their dog. You could see who the "hard" dogs were, still fighting and engaging me, with out their handler as support and gun shots going off. The dogs that did not muzzle fight hard initially were convinced to fight hard. A very interesting training scenario from several standpoints. It is better to make mistakes in training and get shot than on the street. I am banged up, scratched and bruised from fighting seven dogs in a row and many people shooting me. I know some of the handlers saw things they liked and expected from their dogs, some saw things that were not so great. As far as ability to handle that stress, on the hardness scale I saw some "6's" and I saw some "8's." I didn't see any "10's."
by Ace952 on 15 February 2012 - 22:02
LOL!!!! Yea typing on a phone is a PITA and auto correct is a bitch. This sITe needs a mobile version.
Dude, I want to train with you guys! Do you all do that type of training often? For the dogs thsy didn't do so well, how do you work on building their confidence up? (if it's a confidence issue or something else) How do you look to improve their performance the next time? Sounds like a helluva test for the handler and dog and a good way of testing both under organized chaos.
I think many people say they have hard dogs but as Sable and Desert dog said, if the dog has never been in a real position to show how hard it is, how do you know?? Jim in your situation and job you can see but for a majority of people they can't and go off training session with a decoy or hope.
Dude, I want to train with you guys! Do you all do that type of training often? For the dogs thsy didn't do so well, how do you work on building their confidence up? (if it's a confidence issue or something else) How do you look to improve their performance the next time? Sounds like a helluva test for the handler and dog and a good way of testing both under organized chaos.
I think many people say they have hard dogs but as Sable and Desert dog said, if the dog has never been in a real position to show how hard it is, how do you know?? Jim in your situation and job you can see but for a majority of people they can't and go off training session with a decoy or hope.
by vomeisenhaus on 16 February 2012 - 00:02
Slamdunc.... are you sure those dogs you called an 8 were in fact only 7's ? Lol.
by Slamdunc on 16 February 2012 - 01:02
An 8 on my scale, your scale may be tougher. The ones that left the cuts,scrapes and bruises on my face and body; I gave an 8. Perhaps, I am getting a little soft. I used my rating scale, keep in mind I know the digs and the handlers. We train every week. The handlers got between a 5 and a 9.
by Gusmanda on 16 February 2012 - 05:02
perhaps the OP should rephrase the question to something more objective like "who breeds dogs suitable for (fill in the blanck with activity that you wish the dog to perform)", easier for folks to recommend kennels
by myret on 16 February 2012 - 07:02
Many of you take the subject negative but maybe Thère is a reason for these posts always comes up!!!!!!!!
I dó agree with slamdunc ón hardness but we All se it differently a dog that Can handle corrections and still stay In drive and the Way it Can bounce back
by joanro on 16 February 2012 - 12:02
A chihuahua can take correction if given fairly.
by j haynes on 16 February 2012 - 13:02
Jim- That is very cool man. I would love to bring Luc when you did some suit work to see how he would respond. Home protection is fast aproaching him as a career in his older days.. ;)
Donald- What is YOUR definition of a hard dog? What has Brutus done and been through to prove his hardness to you?
Donald- What is YOUR definition of a hard dog? What has Brutus done and been through to prove his hardness to you?
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