Hard dogs - Page 3

Jim,

what a nice description... clear, make sence...

Well, I got one. Simple put, if you dont know what to do with such dog, you dont wish to own one.

Hey pack, thanks!

Nikos,
There are a lot of hard, tough dogs out there performing in sports.
Just as there are hard dogs working the streets and also in pet homes.
The situation you describe about the Belgian import, without knowing more, sounds like a situation where there were probably some less knowledgeable trainers handling the dog when it got here before it went to someone that allowed it the time to adjust and form a bond. Too often people will buy a dog that has some training on it and expect it to immediately start performing for them. Why would a good dog do this? That doesn't mean that you can't start training it, but, if that training involves cranking the shit out of the dog and putting a lot of pressure on it before it has bonded with the new owner/handler then you get what you got coming from the dog. Dogs aren't stupid. They can figure out who the real deal is and the fakers rather quickly. 
It always boggles my mind when I see or hear of so-called "experienced" trainers that think the same way most pet owners do in that these dogs have a switch and when you flip that switch they are perfect. It doesn't work that way.
In my humble opinion, I feel that, on average, it takes most dogs about 60 days to fully adjust to a new environment/owner. This does not mean that they will not perform for you prior to that, but, that they are not fully comfortable with their new situation. One of the things that people forget with GSD's (and other herding breeds) is that they are highly territorial dogs, and much like cats, they are not very comfortable outside their "territory".
What I like to see is when a new dog (not puppy) arrives the owner takes the dog to training and does put some pressure on it to see how the dog will handle it (this will likely tell you a lot about the dog) and then backs off and lets the dog adjust and builds a bond with the dog over a period of a couple of months. That to me is the right way to do this.

Slamdunc,
As always, great explanations.

Ibrahim,
To me, a balanced dog is one that doesn't fall off a four inch wide beam that is 48 inches or more in height. (LOL)

Fogive me for not reading every comment, but Nikos, what you're describing has nothing to do with "hard" and your definitions of these traits all seemed to be thrown together. You're saying the same things about "hard" dogs as you did "dominan(t)" dogs in the other thread. Neither hard nor dominant necessarily means aggressive, and unless we get some terms cleared as far as a universal definition, this is going nowhere.

And minro, what you're describing is really no big deal, and certainly not only found in imports. Balance is balance, and it's too bad that everyone doesn't place equal importance on it, but plenty do, and IF, I repeat, IF you know where to look, you can find it. You do know that there are dogs here who have already been imported, right? I don't think the flight changes that much for the worse.  

I owned a truly hard dog one time out of Crok Von Erlenbusch.  This dog loved to fight.  He didn't fight because of weak nerves or poor training.  He just flat out loved to fight.  He put more than one person in the hospital, killed various animals, and was always looking for trouble.  It's been my experience that many people think they want a hard dog, until they actually get a truly hard dog.  They are not easy to live with, and you had better be constantly on your toes, or problems will occur.  They also don't usually make good sport dogs, because their aggression can be extreme, and can channel in ways you don't expect or want.  I managed to put a Sch II on my dog, and a breed survey, but it wasn't easy.  At times he looked phenomenal, but because of his extreme fight drive, you could never trust him around people or other dogs.  We established a good bond, and he eventually learned to trust me, but no one else.  I finally sold him because he was just too much of a danger.  The guy that bought him, loved that kind of dog, but he was never trained for sport again, only used for breeding.  So before you say I want a "hard" dog, realize what you may be getting yourself into. 
DCW

Jenni - Of course I know there are imports here, ha. I had originally planned to get a puppy from Truehaus (out of two imports) Unfortunately, that doesn't always mean that those dogs will produce what I'm looking for either. I'll put it this way, if someones going to randomly pick a puppy out of ALL the gsd pups in the US, or overseas in Europe, I'll take my chances with Europe. 

Anyways, I agree with everyone else. These terms that are being thrown around mean something different to every person. I think it also has a lot to do with how much experience each person has. 

 

Jenny, yes I was using some terms interchangeably, so I starte a post about dominant dogs with natural aggression; I am interested inpeoples experiences with these type of dogs. If you read DCW post above yours he/she is using the term hard to refer to "hard to handle"dogs, the way i intended originally. DCW, that crok son you had sounds like the type of dog that requires a special relation

nikos , I know few of these dogs , but hardly to be found in sport , as sporthandlers who want points dont like dogs like this , in sport I wouls say remus chmelovy kvitek , and Ive seen some offspring from Fado van der lutter  that fit that description , I have a czech male like that , but he is definately no sportdog , I trust him 200% but it took me long time before he allowed me to even roll him on his side after I commanded him down , he would warn me when I tried to , now he is fine with things like this for me , but he stays clear of strangers ho want to pet him , etc
I bred him to a remusdaughter  and got some real strong hard stubborn dogs from this combination , one ,in training for police/patroldog ,  changed handler recently , as he wouldnot allow the handler to come close to the helper he has in his mouth

also this dog of mine has super pack behaviour , how he controles all our other dogs with minimum effort , never starts a fight with other males , only his son with remusdaughter is a big nono , they cant go together as his son challenges his position

for you I guess there must be some fado lutter offspring in the USA  as he bred quite a few bitches in his days

Minro, if you're talking as an American, you want to buy a random puppy from Europe, I wish you good luck.   Imo, that is a grave mistake. You get the crapshoot that any puppy brings, plus no warranty, plus the fact that you can pretty much count on getting the worst example of what you're looking for- I mean, of course they're going to export what they don't like. It's just business. Sorry to derail, Nikos, but Minro, I would stick w/dogs in this country, from people with reputations and guarantees (as much as you can guarantee a dog). Also, I think it would be helpful to really nail down what it is you want in a dog. You seem to go back and forth a lot and be in a big hurry, which is not going to get you what you want. Only a lot of research and seeing a lot of dogs and talking to owners and breeders of such dogs is going to give you the best chance, imho.

Anyway...sorry about going off topic a bit there. Nikos, I disagree about terms, but that's common. I think a lot of debate about temperament comes from this problem. I don't see where only a dominant dog can have natural aggression, and I don't see why a dog w/such "fight" that it's untrustworthy and "always looking for trouble" is desireable; to me, that's not balanced, though I know it may have been man-made and somewhat exaggerated. I like a dog who will rise to any occasion, and I don't see why the same dog can't be happy to work for a fair handler. I think you can have both; I know you can.