Civil Dogs - Page 3

A civil dog to me is one that will go from nuetral to unprovoked bite other than command with out any other stimulus. A dog biting a intruder, or a dog biting in defense is just another good dog. IMO
And there are a lot of them around. Alot of dogs are started at a young age working bite sleeves and tugs, and don't get much civil work to develope it like it should. And there are some that just don't have the heart for it.

Hank 

Paul.....you said, "no fear biters, sharp or brainless dogs....." what is your definition of sharp? What is the point of a civil PP dog if you can't take him places with you? To me what you are describing is a junk yard dog. Just to clarify you mean handler hard not to be confused with handler aggressive as that is a separate thing. Do you feel these are only really found in the West german lines?

  Sharp dogs are driven out of fear. I want clear headed hardness.  You can take him places they just need to be well trained. Most junk yard dogs are sharp, it is a good place for them. Handler hardness comes from dogs higher up the alpha scale. But a sharp or fearful dog can seem to be handler hard or agressive, but it is just fear. I perfer West German dogs because of breeding but it is or was easier to find civil dog in the eastern block countries. The Hungerian's and Czech's have produced some very civil and hard dogs and I would take the right dog from these lines, but West German lines I like best. It is very different breeding, more like a different breed. It is the same as show lines and working lines. Just different dogs.

Where do you get your information on Old Style Hard Civil Dogs!

I remember reading about the Iron Curtain and how the dogs on wall were so soft they would freely go off with anyone fleeing eastern Germany.

And of course as a child born in the late 60's I remember junk yard GSD's and those tied up in the Coal Yards as being ferocious to the average 10yr old. Then there were the mythical Police Dogs, now not so mythical after 24yrs in the organisation.

Was it the schutzhund fields of Europe.

I'm not having a pop, but we are all guilty on occasion of this view romantic view of days gone by, but I think we need to separate our perceptions from the facts.

Perhaps this is the type of dog we're thinking about;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsBi0PehfAM

Regards

Ronin

how about maybe getting a pup from Inox from haus ming he should be a hard guading dog and is linebreed on Mink

I have a litter of pups from this breeding:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/classifieds/121408.html 

Mink is in the pedigree on the sire side.  It is an outcross in that the only common ancestor is Troll in the fifth generation.  That is not a bad dog to have in common.  The parents were bred because they are very alike in type.

No one in the club I belong to nor in clubs in BC Canada is buying a puppy from this litter.  It is all club policy and friends connections.  The pups currently sold from this litter are going all over North America because some savvy people recognize the benefits of the combinations of bloodlines.  The puppies are all bouncy, explorative, large, healthy, social and scrappy.  They are all inquisitive and getting experience with different surfaces, loud noises, (next to my hubby's machine shop) and outdoor roaming in back yard.

They have the best feed and are kept as clean as possible.  We are both retired and able to give the best attention and care.  The mother, my female, is a super trial dog and in SchH3 has been high in trial and all SG scores under an FCI well known hard judge, and is KKl1. 

And yet, because I am not a "known breeder" or with a reputation, people don't seem to want my pups.  And yet, this is the most beautiful, healthy, active and uniform litter.  I am so fortunate to have such a beautiful bunch of pups.  I am amazed at the quality. 

I am only charging $1500 with full registration, 3 wormings, tattoos and microchips, and yet I see known-name breeders who could not possibly give the pups the benefits we are giving, charging $2500 and more.  Makes no sense to me.

Connie Doan
BC Canada

Connie
It looks like a nice group of well bred puppies but they are bred for the sport. The money is in the top sport dogs but I would not trust my things or my life with one. Troll and Timmy were both fine Sch dogs, but I would never line breed on Fero. A little Fero goes a long way in my opinion. Fero was a high line or show dog and that is fine for a outcross but not to line breed on.

This is the problem with the GSD today too much sport and not enough hardness. We all need to remember Sch was set up to judge PROTECTION DOGS now tell me just what do they protect? It has become a contest. My wife fills soda machines and has quite a bit of money in her truck; now would you trust the modern SchIII dog to protect her? I would not. It requires a civil hard brave agressive dog to do this. He does not need to wag his tail and be friendly.

Ronin
I get my information from experience of having owned many of these fine dogs and it does not seem you have been around very many eastern block dogs. of even 10-15 years ago they did not run off they would eat you if given the chance.

Kim
Will the dog do that on its own if it is left in the car or in the yard? If so that is civil.

Paul, you seem like a guy that has studied a pedigree or two and knows what he's getting from certain dogs, so what's the problem?

Yes, Paul, they are bred for the sport.  However, I pointed out, the only common ancestor is Troll in the FIFTH generation.  That is not exactly line breeding.  Both parents are hard dogs in the old style with a lot of defense.  The sire, more so.  Not a litter of prey wimps in any sense of the word.

My female has protected me in the real world when I needed it on a moment's notice and she would always be there for me.  And yet she is highly social and safe with anyone.  All of the helpers who have worked with her (some of the best in the USA) will vouch for her working ability and spirit!

/c.