protection work!!! SHATTERED! - Page 3

I agree Jim and you make a good point.  I've seen prey started with young dogs many times, & they grew up to be tough PP dogs. They were not ruined at all.

"Mobjack, you start a dog in prey and they will always view protection that way, thats not how you start a personal protection or police dogs thats how you start sport dogs, best to wait until dog is mature and has off leash ob before agitating"

This statement could not be more wrong.  Most police and military trainers use cookie cutter techniques to put a dog in service as fast as possible.  OB on many police and military dogs is quite poor.

" you start a dog in prey and they will always view protection that way"

If you actually believe this your knowledge of drive development and grip training is quite telling.  From reading your other posts, you have been training just long enough to be quite dangerous.

If you are not happy with your trainer find another.  Building confindece in young dogs doing grip work is ALWAYS done in prey.  Rag, tug, pillow and sleeve work can be done with very young dogs.  But this work is to be done by your most experieced helpers, not the newbie.  When training young dogs just make sure their teeth are set and not teething.  You do not want to associate pain with the bite.

Listen to the others, find another trainer if you want to start grip work.  GSD's mature early compared to other breeds.  If you had a Rottie or Bouvier I could see waiting until 18 months.  You can start adding a little pressure with a GSD as young as 8 months.

Kyle

There's also always the possibility that the trainer was trying to be diplomatic and inoffensive, and said that the *dog* wasn't mature enough yet when it's actually the *handler* who isn't...

 yoshi .. there is a dimension to your reply to my post : there ARE SOME canines that [ unless you become that dog ] DO NOT outwardly / obviously exhibit a potential for working  and ditto  for when one works a dog with a rag at a very early age. BUT .... this is what makes a person developing a dog ... to know .. in see into the dog . case in point .. friend had a GSD that didn't look at a rag .. no interest for a year to chase it .. at 1.5 years .. like a light .. something switched on in it's head .. actually i think latent potential .. in summery.. the dog went on to get a french ring brevet and french ring 1 title !! BUT a good trainer can teach a dog exercies  and corrects difficulties .. a great trainer teaches and prevents difficulties .. the best trainer : becomes one with the dog and becomes .. the essence of the dog itself. - in the meantime .. like a child .. the dog will learn .. every moment it is learning / assimilating .. right at birth it has innate instincts and uses them .. right from birth it interacts with it environment .. did you ever see a 1 minute old pup ?? it knows and learns to crawl right to the mom to feed . So :  we get the dog .. that we have molded from hence forth .. AP            PS .. even when a canine is ready ... each has it's own style !! - MUCH OF THE TIME which is missed or not understood by a trainer.. that is another commentary 

no disagreement aplha. just think are some exceptions is all.

Yoshi.
It depends on not how old  your dog is, but on how mature your dog is. Todays dogs mature slowly. If your dog is faster maturing then  he may be able to do higher stress training sooner. I remember dogs where mature enough to do anything at 1 year or even younger. There was a thing called workable age. It was usually from 1 year to 9 years in case of GSD. Now it is much shorter,  probably from 2.5 years to 7 years. This is based on genetics. Unfortunately just about  no-one these days  breeds  for long workable age. These days the opposite is the truth since  people are in love with the puppy hood of their dogs and subconsciously want to extend it.
 Also I would say that as far as dog's training goes:...if in doubt;...then go slower. You can do much more damage by advancing  too fast then by waiting a little while perfecting other routines. Now I do not know the training you are doing, your trainer or your dog. I am talking in general rules.  
 
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Hey Hans long time no see,

How have things been?

I wrote almost verbatum several lines in your post in my 1st post to this thread. So i think maybe you caught the after math of a side bar. 

I dont know if you remember but I did want to reconnect on our previous discussion a few months back on your opinions of  "defense first into prey". we never connected after chatting about it on here.

Your trainer might be right, the dog may not be mentally mature enough to do civil protection.  But you should be playing tug with him a lot at this point, and possibly having the trainer tug with him to get him comfortable doing that with another person.  5 months is not that long of doing obedience, maybe the trainer doesn't see enough control from you and reliable obedience to want to make your dog dangerous.