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by Myracle on 24 July 2011 - 01:07
Just what is it that you do, Preston, that you're reading the private mental health records of others?
And unless you're directly related to the case management of the persons' to whom these records belonged, why exactly aren't you enraged by the violation of personal rights to privacy, and HIPAA laws?
And unless you're directly related to the case management of the persons' to whom these records belonged, why exactly aren't you enraged by the violation of personal rights to privacy, and HIPAA laws?
by Preston on 24 July 2011 - 07:07
Mindhunt. You are wrong about how the MMPI is used for police. In many depts it is used as a standard screening test, just as the CPI is used for business executive positions in many high income jobs. It is not used near as much nowadays for mental health diagnoses as it used to be, but if you were trained in current psychlogical testiog and completed an internship, youi would know that and the reasons why.
What one's profile is determind is often a major determinant in whether the officer is hired or not. And if you are in your final clinical training you should already know that the MMPI has classically been used to screen a broad range of students enetering state universities, at student counseling bureaus, as a screening instrument for marriage & family therapy patients, and for adult, child and adolesent psychiatry admits or those seeing psychologists or psychiatrists for a myriad of reasons, as well as some being used by MD physicians of numerous specialties.
You should know about the recent changes in this which have generated a big controversy. If you don't then your knowledge ofthe MMPI and psyuchological testing is very limited. I was able to view some of the original collations of adolescent profiles, since my first advisor was one of the test developers.
And Mudwick, you make far too many assumptions of things you know nothing about (this is a problem for many police officers and bureaucrats who get caught up in stereotypes and routines). First, I am not referring to individual private, identified private mental health records in making my conclusions. You wrongly assumed that. My conclusions are based on anonymous grouped data from several studies involving various professions including police profiles. Yes, I reviewed numerous profiles in my professional life and came to many generalizations about occupations and profile patterns for them, and yes a whole classical strudy was published containing grouped profile data and SDs for numerious professions incvluding LEOs and this was all done with consent. I also have some memories of trends from the many I saw over the years, which is my right to develop as grouped anonymous trends. There is no law protecting grouped anonymous data from approved, govt supported studies or grants. But you speak with authority so believe what you want. Both you and Mindhunt are 180 degrees off on your assertions and assumptions here.
What one's profile is determind is often a major determinant in whether the officer is hired or not. And if you are in your final clinical training you should already know that the MMPI has classically been used to screen a broad range of students enetering state universities, at student counseling bureaus, as a screening instrument for marriage & family therapy patients, and for adult, child and adolesent psychiatry admits or those seeing psychologists or psychiatrists for a myriad of reasons, as well as some being used by MD physicians of numerous specialties.
You should know about the recent changes in this which have generated a big controversy. If you don't then your knowledge ofthe MMPI and psyuchological testing is very limited. I was able to view some of the original collations of adolescent profiles, since my first advisor was one of the test developers.
And Mudwick, you make far too many assumptions of things you know nothing about (this is a problem for many police officers and bureaucrats who get caught up in stereotypes and routines). First, I am not referring to individual private, identified private mental health records in making my conclusions. You wrongly assumed that. My conclusions are based on anonymous grouped data from several studies involving various professions including police profiles. Yes, I reviewed numerous profiles in my professional life and came to many generalizations about occupations and profile patterns for them, and yes a whole classical strudy was published containing grouped profile data and SDs for numerious professions incvluding LEOs and this was all done with consent. I also have some memories of trends from the many I saw over the years, which is my right to develop as grouped anonymous trends. There is no law protecting grouped anonymous data from approved, govt supported studies or grants. But you speak with authority so believe what you want. Both you and Mindhunt are 180 degrees off on your assertions and assumptions here.
by Mindhunt on 24 July 2011 - 18:07
Preston, who was your advisor that was one of the test developers ? What is your background and psychological training? What is/was your area of reasearch that brought you into contact with the above stated data, what study are you taking data from for your above comment a whole classical strudy was published containing grouped profile data and SDs for numerious professions incvluding LEOs cite your sources please. If they are from peer reviewed and scholarly journals, I would be interested, the data might come in handy for research and I would add it to my database of other peer reviewed scholarly journals that I use 
.
The MMPI-2 was designed for use in CLINCIAL SETTINGS and is to be interpreted in conjunction with clinical interviews and other assessment tests. The results that have been interpreted by trained mental health professionals have been used in research along with other assessment testing. Its use in pre-employment screening and screening current employees is a controversy in the mental health field. Many times when this is done, the results are incorrectly used as a stand-alone guide to discipline or to deny employment. Many in the psychology field are trying to stop this practice and if you are a member of APA (American Psychological Association) as I am, you would know this about the MMPI-2.
You stated [I] should already know that the MMPI has classically been used to screen a broad range of students enetering state universities, at student counseling bureaus, as a screening instrument for marriage & family therapy patients, and for adult, child and adolesent psychiatry admits or those seeing psychologists or psychiatrists for a myriad of reasons, as well as some being used by MD physicians of numerous specialties. Universities do not use the MMPI-2 as a routine pre-admittance screening. As a screening instrument for therapy patients and psychiatric admits, this is an appropriate use, these are people seeking or being made to seek professional psychological help, not employment and it is used in conjunction with clinical interviews and other assessment tests.
{These are my sources and are the ones recommended by APA for those who wish to learn correct administration and interpretation of the MMPI-2; Graham, J. R., 2006, MMPI-2: Assessing Personality and Psycholpathology 4th ed, Oxford Pub ISBN 0-19-516806-2; Butcher, J. N., MMPI-2: A Practitioner's Guide ISBN 1-59147-287-3, along with notes from lectures and seminars from psychology professionals that routinely administer and interprete these assessment tests in their practices.}
I apologize to all you others for hijacking the thread and going off into the MMPI-2![]()
.The MMPI-2 was designed for use in CLINCIAL SETTINGS and is to be interpreted in conjunction with clinical interviews and other assessment tests. The results that have been interpreted by trained mental health professionals have been used in research along with other assessment testing. Its use in pre-employment screening and screening current employees is a controversy in the mental health field. Many times when this is done, the results are incorrectly used as a stand-alone guide to discipline or to deny employment. Many in the psychology field are trying to stop this practice and if you are a member of APA (American Psychological Association) as I am, you would know this about the MMPI-2.
You stated [I] should already know that the MMPI has classically been used to screen a broad range of students enetering state universities, at student counseling bureaus, as a screening instrument for marriage & family therapy patients, and for adult, child and adolesent psychiatry admits or those seeing psychologists or psychiatrists for a myriad of reasons, as well as some being used by MD physicians of numerous specialties. Universities do not use the MMPI-2 as a routine pre-admittance screening. As a screening instrument for therapy patients and psychiatric admits, this is an appropriate use, these are people seeking or being made to seek professional psychological help, not employment and it is used in conjunction with clinical interviews and other assessment tests.
{These are my sources and are the ones recommended by APA for those who wish to learn correct administration and interpretation of the MMPI-2; Graham, J. R., 2006, MMPI-2: Assessing Personality and Psycholpathology 4th ed, Oxford Pub ISBN 0-19-516806-2; Butcher, J. N., MMPI-2: A Practitioner's Guide ISBN 1-59147-287-3, along with notes from lectures and seminars from psychology professionals that routinely administer and interprete these assessment tests in their practices.}
I apologize to all you others for hijacking the thread and going off into the MMPI-2
by beetree on 24 July 2011 - 19:07
Mindhunt, sanity is getting to be a breath of fresh air around here, so please don't stop posting your informative explanations. A necessary wandering, so to speak. 
by Preston on 24 July 2011 - 19:07
Mindhunt, I never said the MMPI-2 was used to screen studentss, just the MMPI ie the first version. Your knowledge is not complete and you do not know the hsitory of the test, how it was develped, etc.
I am not going to get into specifics of my career, credentials or training. But it was extensive and you are a mere baby in the process if you haven't evn completed a two year clerkship or internship. But as I said my initial advisor (of one of my graduate degrees) actually was one of the three who developed the test and did the pioneer research, so I now many more of the details than you ever could.
If you really wanted the access to the book and studies I referred to about profiles and selected professions positions, you could spend a week or too doing deep research in a full library with psychology journals and lexus/nexus. I had the book and gave it to a younger colleague many years ago since I didn't need it and she did.
I used the MMPI and MMPI-2 for many years doing psychological testing and interpretation, being licensed for independent practice. It was one of my areas of competency.
There is a whole lot more to the story about the MMPI original being renormed into the MMPI-2, which you appear to know nothing about since you would have mentioned it, it has been so important. But newbies to the profession would be unlikely to know about any of these internal struggles, who was actually behind the revisions, what their alleged motives were, what the results have been and a whole other set of inside information you would not be oprivy to unless you were close to those involved. Suffice it to say this whole renorming was severely criticized and resented by many older top psychologists who understood the reasons for this and the results for psychodiagnostsics. Some very close have said it was all due to "political correctness" and making more money for certain persons involved at the expense of the diagnostic validity of the test. Believe what you want but this is the truth.
I am not going to get into specifics of my career, credentials or training. But it was extensive and you are a mere baby in the process if you haven't evn completed a two year clerkship or internship. But as I said my initial advisor (of one of my graduate degrees) actually was one of the three who developed the test and did the pioneer research, so I now many more of the details than you ever could.
If you really wanted the access to the book and studies I referred to about profiles and selected professions positions, you could spend a week or too doing deep research in a full library with psychology journals and lexus/nexus. I had the book and gave it to a younger colleague many years ago since I didn't need it and she did.
I used the MMPI and MMPI-2 for many years doing psychological testing and interpretation, being licensed for independent practice. It was one of my areas of competency.
There is a whole lot more to the story about the MMPI original being renormed into the MMPI-2, which you appear to know nothing about since you would have mentioned it, it has been so important. But newbies to the profession would be unlikely to know about any of these internal struggles, who was actually behind the revisions, what their alleged motives were, what the results have been and a whole other set of inside information you would not be oprivy to unless you were close to those involved. Suffice it to say this whole renorming was severely criticized and resented by many older top psychologists who understood the reasons for this and the results for psychodiagnostsics. Some very close have said it was all due to "political correctness" and making more money for certain persons involved at the expense of the diagnostic validity of the test. Believe what you want but this is the truth.
by BAMItsWill on 24 July 2011 - 19:07
If you hold a toothbrush in your hand you can not type very fast.
Did you know that?
I tried holding a toothbrush in each hand and knocked over my damn beer!
Did you know that?
I tried holding a toothbrush in each hand and knocked over my damn beer!
by Preston on 24 July 2011 - 19:07
Mindhunt. By the way, post whatever you want. If folks don't want to read it, then they can pass it over. Actually I do like you posts. You are a good writer and a thinker and even though I don't agree with all of what you write, I do think you are interested in learning and I want to encourage you in completing your education and training and in obtaining your credentials for independent practice. My best suggestion for you is to go back and read the basics and then the latest studies and compare them. find a very good, honest, highly ethical experienced psychologist role model to dvelop a mentoring relationship with. Listen to the most experienced practitioners you can have contact with. Get into a professional study/support group if you can. There are many minefields in the psychology profession and more tort lawsuits all the time, so learn how to protect yourself by making good referrals and using informed consent to make client expectations realistic. Be careful of recent trends and fads pushed for money by self-serving psychoogical gurus. Give your clients good informed consent on everything including how their diagnoses will be shared with insurance companies through medical/credit collators fro insurance perhaps like equifax, etc. There is little privacy as these companies allegedly sell medical to many corp and govt buyers, no matter the supposed "portabilityand accountability legislation", which really is a misnomer if one studies how it is actually being used. I believe that before clients use their health insurance to have charges for psychological services billed, they should be made aware that the diagnoses can be and often is used by life insurance companies and other isnurance companies to raise their risk classification to a higher premium catagory. Psychological diagnoses can impede obtaining of a mortgage at a good interest rate or even a car payment in some cases I have been told. So I believe it is good to inform clients about this if the diagnoses has that potential and give them the option to pay cash. This is a difficult issue but most clients want complete informed consent, even for how their diagnosis can and may be used. This is a subject not typically well covered in academia, or post degree training in most cases and yet it is important.
by beetree on 24 July 2011 - 19:07
Will, you really only need to brush your teeth twice a day. Just do a thorough job for about two minutes, that should do it. Flossing really is important for gum health. I should do more flossing myself.
Sorry about the beer. Mop it up and get yourself a fresh one. I get the feeling you don't like wine or I'd share some of mine.
Sorry about the beer. Mop it up and get yourself a fresh one. I get the feeling you don't like wine or I'd share some of mine.
by Mindhunt on 24 July 2011 - 21:07
Preston, I went back and reread your post, I was mistaken, you did say MMPI not MMPI-2. 
An advisor who was one of the developers and did the pioneer research? You have been around a while (lol), bet you do have some stories to tell. I have used the MMPI-2 in conjunction with other personality assessment tests, congnitive assessment tests, and clinical interviews. It does give good information and has dovetailed with projective personality assessment test results rather nicely. I personally love projective personality assessments and the information they pull for although I understand the need for further information derived from objective personality assessment tests (being bad and taking a break from scoring a few projective and objective tests right now).
I have been extremely lucky with my advisors and mentors. My first advisor (and friend) has been around as long as you have (judging by what you have said) and he is well respected in many countries besides the US, although he is no longer practicing or teaching due to health issues. He is great to bounce ideas off of. I am in the process of researching and publishing an article about perceived social support and stress levels in firefighters with another mentor and friend right now (he is well published and respected pscyhology researcher and a great resource) hence the request for your data.
As for confidentiality, I agree, that is very important and you are completely correct in how insurance companies use mental health information and allow access to it. My personal voodoo doll that I throw pins at is big pharma and its constant pushing to have all of us on medication. I have seen a few police officers and firefighters placed on medication by their *$#@ department physician without appropriate referral to psychological counselling. Hello, lets try and figure out what is going on before we medicate the crap out of it and introduce new wonderfully annoying side effects (sorry, throwing pins at the doll again).
Still curious about your comment "roided" out power lifters (paraphrasing) when you were discussing police officers. I still don't agree with MMPI-2s being used as pre-employment screening. My target clientele are first responders (police, fire, ems). It's going to be hard enough to work throught the resistance and mistrust without psychological test results being used inappropriately and punitively.
Look forward to further intersting discussions Preston.......
An advisor who was one of the developers and did the pioneer research? You have been around a while (lol), bet you do have some stories to tell. I have used the MMPI-2 in conjunction with other personality assessment tests, congnitive assessment tests, and clinical interviews. It does give good information and has dovetailed with projective personality assessment test results rather nicely. I personally love projective personality assessments and the information they pull for although I understand the need for further information derived from objective personality assessment tests (being bad and taking a break from scoring a few projective and objective tests right now).
I have been extremely lucky with my advisors and mentors. My first advisor (and friend) has been around as long as you have (judging by what you have said) and he is well respected in many countries besides the US, although he is no longer practicing or teaching due to health issues. He is great to bounce ideas off of. I am in the process of researching and publishing an article about perceived social support and stress levels in firefighters with another mentor and friend right now (he is well published and respected pscyhology researcher and a great resource) hence the request for your data.
As for confidentiality, I agree, that is very important and you are completely correct in how insurance companies use mental health information and allow access to it. My personal voodoo doll that I throw pins at is big pharma and its constant pushing to have all of us on medication. I have seen a few police officers and firefighters placed on medication by their *$#@ department physician without appropriate referral to psychological counselling. Hello, lets try and figure out what is going on before we medicate the crap out of it and introduce new wonderfully annoying side effects (sorry, throwing pins at the doll again).
Still curious about your comment "roided" out power lifters (paraphrasing) when you were discussing police officers. I still don't agree with MMPI-2s being used as pre-employment screening. My target clientele are first responders (police, fire, ems). It's going to be hard enough to work throught the resistance and mistrust without psychological test results being used inappropriately and punitively.
Look forward to further intersting discussions Preston.......
by Preston on 24 July 2011 - 22:07
Mindhunt, you are destined to be a very ethical, caring licensed psychologist in independent practice. W need more like you, and unfortunately your attitude is not the norm nowdays due to HMOs and financial pressures.
Quite a number of good police, intel and military have their careers destroyed because a self-serving or ignorant psychologist gives them a sticky DX that damages their security clearances and job. And an aberrant RX for SSRIs or neuroleptics by a family MD or psychiatrist can destroy a career. Rarely are police or intel or those with security clearances given adequate consent of this likelihood. But the MD or Ph.D. seems so kiond so caring, hard to believe they could care less of the damage to good people in so many cases.
Your concern for this early on will eventually bring you a big practice. Why? Because clients unconsciously figure out motives eventually, and those who connect positively do refer family friends and associates, especially if they know that matters can be handled discreetly and honestly. Psychologists that are conniving, money hungry and self-serving always have big problems eventually. I have seen many like that who paid a price in lost business later on.
There have been many abuses of the MMPI for employment screening over the years. And abnormally high 4/9 codetype was considered a no-no for police hiring in many depts. My specialty was used of paired profiles with use of two and three point codes, not as helpful with the MMPI-2. The MMPI-2 actually is regarded as substantially less valid by some psychologists who are top testing/research experts, which I am not. My closest colleague was, however and he and another professor worked on advanced research on the first version. He claimed that much of the diagnostic value of the MMPI was ruined by the renorming and developmrnt of the new MMPI-2, which a significant number of psychologists have just stopped using for those reasons.
Quite a number of good police, intel and military have their careers destroyed because a self-serving or ignorant psychologist gives them a sticky DX that damages their security clearances and job. And an aberrant RX for SSRIs or neuroleptics by a family MD or psychiatrist can destroy a career. Rarely are police or intel or those with security clearances given adequate consent of this likelihood. But the MD or Ph.D. seems so kiond so caring, hard to believe they could care less of the damage to good people in so many cases.
Your concern for this early on will eventually bring you a big practice. Why? Because clients unconsciously figure out motives eventually, and those who connect positively do refer family friends and associates, especially if they know that matters can be handled discreetly and honestly. Psychologists that are conniving, money hungry and self-serving always have big problems eventually. I have seen many like that who paid a price in lost business later on.
There have been many abuses of the MMPI for employment screening over the years. And abnormally high 4/9 codetype was considered a no-no for police hiring in many depts. My specialty was used of paired profiles with use of two and three point codes, not as helpful with the MMPI-2. The MMPI-2 actually is regarded as substantially less valid by some psychologists who are top testing/research experts, which I am not. My closest colleague was, however and he and another professor worked on advanced research on the first version. He claimed that much of the diagnostic value of the MMPI was ruined by the renorming and developmrnt of the new MMPI-2, which a significant number of psychologists have just stopped using for those reasons.
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