Please show me your WL gaiting! - Page 26

Xeph, as a matter of fact German GSDs, many of them, have more angulated rears than fronts too. I imagine rear angulation is easier to achieve and maintain in a line than that of front.

As said earlier it isn't easy to breed and select for everything, sometimes a breeder has to make a choice between traits when not possible to have all in one single breeding, but if vision and determination are there, he/she can re-fix in next breedings, I imagine that is how it is done in real life.

 

Ibrahim

I agree, Xeph. I haven't had much experience with ASL's having weak temperaments, but most of the GSD's I'm around on a regular basis are not 100% ASL (does that matter?) and they are always worked and trained in OB and all have at least a  CD or a BH and an AD.  All  adults have CGC's and have passed the GSDCA temperament test and most are CHIC. One of the owners has trained and titled many GSD's to UDX's; she has GSL x ASL's, doesn't show in conformation. Another rescues and breeds titled GSD's with impeccable temperaments.

You probably know the breeders and dogs I'm talking about. I'm not going to name them here, it doesn't really matter. What matters is they have OB degrees, some with very advanced degrees, most have Sch/IPO titles or have at least been exposed to a sleeve and helper, certified in SAR, service dogs, PAM's, an AKC CH with V rating and a Sch3. One little 6 month old female is running the blinds already and does a damned good bark and hold. She's been working on a sleeve since she was 3 months old and just placed VP2 under Konig in a strong 6 to 9 class. This was her first SV show and she was attacked by an adult male who broke away from his nerdy owner. When he jumped on her back, she stood her ground, never cowarded and when the owner pulled the dog off, she shook and continued on her way as if nothing happened. IMO that's a great temperament.

I have to wonder how many ASL's never reach their full potential because they are not worked in some venue or another. The ASL breeders don't encourage rag work or any sort of tugging. The feeling is that creates aggressive dogs. They don't want "dogs that bite".

I tend to think that it's the breeders and owners, not the dogs, that are the basis for the weak temperaments in many of those dogs. However, til they realize that pretty isn't all there is, it will continue to be what it is. Few seem to get that.

"Not wanting dogs that bite" naturally leads to selecting against it. 

 

That's my Captain Obvious quote for the day. 

I'm not so sure they select against it, they probably stifle it from the start and have no clue which dogs have the potential and which don't.

Having an IPO club, we see many different types of GSD's from puppies to veterans. Far more ASL's flunk out then ESL (E for Euro) and EWL's.

 

How many of those dogs have been raised and imprinted by breeders who encourage rag work, etc? How many are owned by breeders? How many are owned by experienced people who have trained in IPO? It's not just as simple as dismissing dogs as flunkies because of their pedigree. These dogs are bred, born and raised in another world.  Buyers who understand IPO dont buy ASL's.  Most ASL's are sold to pet homes looking for another Rin TinTin. . We really don't know how they could do if raised in an "IPO environment" and it's not likely that anyone will ever know because the interest isn't there from either camp.

Ibrahim, in all the years I have been in dogs, the one thing I have heard consistently from all breeders (regardless of breed) is that a rear is the easiest thing to fix and the front is the easiest thing to lose.

As for ASL's in IPO, the little bitch I had was one I worked in IPO.  She was doing some stellar work.  Had really nice prey, was working on back up bites, etc.  LOVED her.  Loved her confidence, loved her willingness to TRY, loved her biddability, loved her JOY of the work.

That was my dysplastic bitch -_-

Trying to find something like that can be hard.  I try and develop drives from a very young age.  My current bitch does not have the same amount of drive as the last bitch did.  We're going to try agility, but I'll say the only time I see REAL focused drive out of her is when she is on sheep.  She's a very different dog on sheep.

What ASL's lack in wanting to work a man they make up for in being quite herdy.  They have maintained that instinct rather well...and I do mean true herding, not just hunting made to look like herding.  My experience with the European dogs is largely that they'd rather hunt than herd.  Obviously that is not ALWAYS true, but my experience is that it is more true than not.

How many high level ipo competitors are going to feed and put the time in to take the risk of an unproven ASL line when they can prolly get a cheaper WL from proven stock. the ASL breeder will have to prove it themselves to the sport community multiple times or pay a big name trainer to take the time.

the best IPO dog could be an ASL sitting in some pet home right now, how would we ever know, who has got the time to find out?

VK4, when it comes to working dogs, depend on what you SEE, not what you would like to see.

^ Wasn't that my point??