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by Member on 27 January 2011 - 10:01
Identification is a must and should be used in all Health Checks but without DNA which is in turn linked to the parents and as many relatives as possible it is useless. Very shortly we are going to be informed about a Breed Worth valuation here in the UK and promoted by the UK Kennel Club these values are going to be based on pedigrees not on individual DNA taken from just the parents . Without any knowledge of the correct parents of all the dogs in these pedigrees through the lack of DNA I cannot see the value. The German ZW (Breed Worth) for Hips and Elbows is based on the knowledge that in recent years DNA is compulsory.
John Ward
by Videx on 27 January 2011 - 13:01
A DNA test for the purpose of "identifying genetically inherited conditions" MUST be supported by a DNA Parentage test.
EVERYONE will then know that the sample for DNA health screening can ALSO be used, randomly or otherwise, to check it is from the correct animal, by checking the DNA parentage profile.
The phrase "genetically inherited" screams out for the accurate DNA Parentage check. Many diseases, JRD for example, can readily be traced back, however the use of accurate DNA parentage test/result will greatly assist. Chasing ghosts is not an option.
The AKA suffered an 11% failure rate in DNA parentage tests in 1998 - they still suffered a 5% failure rate in 2008.
I sincerely believe that the Kennel Club will PUSH the line - DNA Parentage Tests are a "longer term objective" - of course then one only has to ask, "how long is a piece of string" The KC will "string" us along for many many years.
I can hear it now from Caroline Kisko - "DNA parentage Tests are a long term goal"
BULLSHIT!
EVERYONE will then know that the sample for DNA health screening can ALSO be used, randomly or otherwise, to check it is from the correct animal, by checking the DNA parentage profile.
The phrase "genetically inherited" screams out for the accurate DNA Parentage check. Many diseases, JRD for example, can readily be traced back, however the use of accurate DNA parentage test/result will greatly assist. Chasing ghosts is not an option.
The AKA suffered an 11% failure rate in DNA parentage tests in 1998 - they still suffered a 5% failure rate in 2008.
I sincerely believe that the Kennel Club will PUSH the line - DNA Parentage Tests are a "longer term objective" - of course then one only has to ask, "how long is a piece of string" The KC will "string" us along for many many years.
I can hear it now from Caroline Kisko - "DNA parentage Tests are a long term goal"
BULLSHIT!
by Abby Normal on 27 January 2011 - 16:01
John
Identification is a must and should be used in all Health Checks but without DNA which is in turn linked to the parents and as many relatives as possible it is useless.
If you mean without DNA ID, then I disagree. I can have a dog with unknown parentage tested for a specific condition, lets say PD for example, and know - without any knowledge of parentage - whether MY DOG carries the gene, and with that information I can avoid reproducing that disease. Pretty useful I think!
For those diseases which there are currently no tests for, ancestral accuracy becomes more important, especially if certain diseases are suspected in certain lines, but for existing DNA tests, no.
If you are prioritising a move towards breed worth which may be introduced, then of course DNA ID would be necessary, for then ancestry would prove crucial. However, unless all a dog's progeny are tested, isnt the ZW to a large degree inaccurate in any case? It does explain though why some people have a desire to prioritise DNA Identification, over more immediate health concerns.
IMO DNA ID is a MUCH lesser concern than the current health testing (with bad results or lack of) being bred from and resulting litters being allowed to be registered.
Edited to add: Additionally, focusing on the health testing issue would be of immediate benefit to a range of breeds and not just the GSD.
Identification is a must and should be used in all Health Checks but without DNA which is in turn linked to the parents and as many relatives as possible it is useless.
If you mean without DNA ID, then I disagree. I can have a dog with unknown parentage tested for a specific condition, lets say PD for example, and know - without any knowledge of parentage - whether MY DOG carries the gene, and with that information I can avoid reproducing that disease. Pretty useful I think!
For those diseases which there are currently no tests for, ancestral accuracy becomes more important, especially if certain diseases are suspected in certain lines, but for existing DNA tests, no.
If you are prioritising a move towards breed worth which may be introduced, then of course DNA ID would be necessary, for then ancestry would prove crucial. However, unless all a dog's progeny are tested, isnt the ZW to a large degree inaccurate in any case? It does explain though why some people have a desire to prioritise DNA Identification, over more immediate health concerns.
IMO DNA ID is a MUCH lesser concern than the current health testing (with bad results or lack of) being bred from and resulting litters being allowed to be registered.
Edited to add: Additionally, focusing on the health testing issue would be of immediate benefit to a range of breeds and not just the GSD.
by Videx on 27 January 2011 - 18:01
I recognise once again it is pointless debating woth people who consistently illustrate a severe case of "tunnel vision".
by Sue B on 27 January 2011 - 19:01
David, Tunnel Vision you say, simply have to disagree with you there as the gift of Second Sight has been clearly illustrated here!! 
Abby, in reply to John.W (member) you said,
"I can have a dog with unknown parentage tested for a specific condition, lets say PD for example, and know - without any knowledge of parentage - whether MY DOG carries the gene, and with that information I can avoid reproducing that disease."
Lets examine that statement, warts and all. Firstly, a dog with unknown parentage is a Mongrel. Secondly, the only way that statement works (i.e. that you could avoid reproducing that disease by testing a dog with unknown parents) is to NEVER breed from that dog. Which you could do without testing for a specific condition, after all, if you are going to discard the dog from the gene pool if it carries the gene for one specific condition why stop there?? After all, it goes without saying that every living thing (and dogs are no exception) will carry the gene for some genetic defect / disease, so as I have said many times before, the only sure way not to produce a fault is NOT to breed (full stop) !!
Now for the only sure way of actually tracing faults in bloodlines is as David and John rightly suggest, thats to first ID the parents and progeny with Microchip and secondly to DNA the progeny for proof of parentage. That way once a genetic fault is established by DNA profiling to specific bloodlines, then breeders are more able to make informed choices when it comes to deciding on a suitable mate.
I do hope I have sufficiently explained what I mean in a way you will understand why DNA tests to prove parentage is invaluable when used correctly to identify genetic defects passed down through generations.
Regards
Sue B
Abby, in reply to John.W (member) you said,
"I can have a dog with unknown parentage tested for a specific condition, lets say PD for example, and know - without any knowledge of parentage - whether MY DOG carries the gene, and with that information I can avoid reproducing that disease."
Lets examine that statement, warts and all. Firstly, a dog with unknown parentage is a Mongrel. Secondly, the only way that statement works (i.e. that you could avoid reproducing that disease by testing a dog with unknown parents) is to NEVER breed from that dog. Which you could do without testing for a specific condition, after all, if you are going to discard the dog from the gene pool if it carries the gene for one specific condition why stop there?? After all, it goes without saying that every living thing (and dogs are no exception) will carry the gene for some genetic defect / disease, so as I have said many times before, the only sure way not to produce a fault is NOT to breed (full stop) !!
Now for the only sure way of actually tracing faults in bloodlines is as David and John rightly suggest, thats to first ID the parents and progeny with Microchip and secondly to DNA the progeny for proof of parentage. That way once a genetic fault is established by DNA profiling to specific bloodlines, then breeders are more able to make informed choices when it comes to deciding on a suitable mate.
I do hope I have sufficiently explained what I mean in a way you will understand why DNA tests to prove parentage is invaluable when used correctly to identify genetic defects passed down through generations.
Regards
Sue B
by Videx on 27 January 2011 - 20:01
succinct and absolutely correct Sue
by bazza on 27 January 2011 - 22:01
I sincerely hope you would not reproduce any way with a dog of unknown parentage!!!!
by Videx on 28 January 2011 - 10:01
The DNA Parentage Test is the only way to prove the parentage of a pedigree dog. This requires a DNA parentage test SYSTEM, similar to the SV system to be introduced here in the UK. As the records of DNA Parentage tested dogs build up over the years, it will accumulate the number of dogs in pedigrees that have been actually DNA Parentage tested and therefore PROVE the pedigrees through the generations. We have the science - why don't we use it? answer = Because the KC ivory tower would crumble under the strain of the many failures. remember AKA in the USA 11% failures in 1998 and still having 5% failure in 2008. That is 5 out of every 100 tested that failed = parentage INCORRECT. How can you call them "Pedigree Dogs"????
This is by far superior than a breeder having on the bottom of a pedigree (not all have this)
To the best of my knowledge this pedigree is correct:
Is it? How do you know? Prove it! Based on trust is it? are all thoughts that come to mind.
This is by far superior than a breeder having on the bottom of a pedigree (not all have this)
To the best of my knowledge this pedigree is correct:
Is it? How do you know? Prove it! Based on trust is it? are all thoughts that come to mind.
by blackfurbabe on 28 January 2011 - 17:01
Imo No bitch should be bred again if it has had 2 caesarean sections,no matter what breed,
it is not a natural way,these dogs would die if it was not for the operation.IMO a bitch having to have this operation is seriously at risk of complications/infections so on and so forth,
I totally agree all dogs should have ID trace- able to the breeder and /or owner..
DNA is not an expensive test. it would insure parentage is true,
I am going to DNA my dogs asap.
Videx you are right,thank you for explaining all that, how does anyone know if a pedigree is correct,when they purchase from a stranger or even someone they know.
This is just my opinion,no slamming please.
it is not a natural way,these dogs would die if it was not for the operation.IMO a bitch having to have this operation is seriously at risk of complications/infections so on and so forth,
I totally agree all dogs should have ID trace- able to the breeder and /or owner..
DNA is not an expensive test. it would insure parentage is true,
I am going to DNA my dogs asap.
Videx you are right,thank you for explaining all that, how does anyone know if a pedigree is correct,when they purchase from a stranger or even someone they know.
This is just my opinion,no slamming please.
by Abby Normal on 31 January 2011 - 10:01
For those diseases which there are currently no tests for, ancestral accuracy becomes more important, especially if certain diseases are suspected in certain lines, but for existing DNA tests, no.
SueB
I have not suggested that DNA ID shouldn't be carried out at all, but that there are more immediate concerns that can be addressed in respect of health testing with the microchip/tattoo methods we currently have, and I agree that where other defects that are suspected, but that there is not currently a test for, it is very useful for (see above).
Secondly, the only way that statement works (i.e. that you could avoid reproducing that disease by testing a dog with unknown parents) is to NEVER breed from that dog.
Exactly, I could decide not breed from that dog as I now have certain knowledge that it carries a defect for that condition, thereby avoiding reproducing the disease (that's the whole point Sue). Alternatively I could breed to a clear dog, and then select clear to clear in the future.
Yes, Sue, I know a dog of unknown parentage is called a mongrel, and I love them! (but no, I don't breed them!) the statement about a dog of unknown parentage (as you all well know) was to illustrate that genetic tests for speciific defects are based on the dog in front of you, not it's ancestors, so Bazza - you're being silly, of course one wouldn't breed from it.
SueB
I have not suggested that DNA ID shouldn't be carried out at all, but that there are more immediate concerns that can be addressed in respect of health testing with the microchip/tattoo methods we currently have, and I agree that where other defects that are suspected, but that there is not currently a test for, it is very useful for (see above).
Secondly, the only way that statement works (i.e. that you could avoid reproducing that disease by testing a dog with unknown parents) is to NEVER breed from that dog.
Exactly, I could decide not breed from that dog as I now have certain knowledge that it carries a defect for that condition, thereby avoiding reproducing the disease (that's the whole point Sue). Alternatively I could breed to a clear dog, and then select clear to clear in the future.
Yes, Sue, I know a dog of unknown parentage is called a mongrel, and I love them! (but no, I don't breed them!) the statement about a dog of unknown parentage (as you all well know) was to illustrate that genetic tests for speciific defects are based on the dog in front of you, not it's ancestors, so Bazza - you're being silly, of course one wouldn't breed from it.
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