Sloping backlines and over angulation - Page 2

Hundemutter is right in saying that people see only what they want to see. However, Judges of the breed should see and judge how close the dogs are to the breed standard. Certainly the UK Judges in the 70’s preferred a more angulated dog and a slight slope from the wither to the croup. During this time it was a handling trick, if you want to call it so, that handlers could influence judging by positioning the back legs in different positions to show more angulation and slope of the backline. Not difficult to do, I did it myself . However, I also remember standing next to a German Judge in the 70’s who said whilst looking at a line up in a large Open Class that “the dogs looked as though they came from a different world (zuviel Winkelung hinten) over angulated behind. This was at a time when fewer German Judges came to the UK to Judge. Also, in the 70’s there was plenty of instances where a judge would “look after their friends”. When the German dogs started to come over in numbers during the late 70’s and early 80’s they were not as over angulated as we see today.

It is wrong to compare the faults like long feet and overdone heads with sloping backlines and over angulation. These faults do not affect the endurance and stamina or movement. Chalk and Cheese.

The sloping backs where the fall to the croup begins from the middle of the back and hinged backs began in the UK during the 80’s and is still seen today. IMO this comes from the fact that the German dogs were put to English bloodlines and then inbred so that the faults became difficult to deal with. Breeders were breeding to a type that is all they could produce and, again that exacerbated the problem. At this point in time some Breeders including some well known Breeders, were saying that the Germans have got it all wrong and don’t know what they are doing. Sadly, as in all clicks, the followers blindly believed all that they were fed. Breeders just did not understand what the Germans were doing with their breeding families to consistently get so many good dogs.

After that digression let’s go back to the original question “ Can anyone give an explanation as to why and how this development is beneficial to the breed as a working dog.”

Mackenzie

“ Can anyone give an explanation as to why and how this development is beneficial to the breed as a working dog'


Any answer other than "It does not benefit the breed" is going to be lies.
That question is just like no matter how many times the question, 'can we live on the sun?' is asked, the answer is still 'No'.

Joannro - I understand that you did not say I was breed bashing but the term seemed appropriate for what I wanted to say. As for becoming a split in the breed this is purely because, on this topic, the Show Breeders will not come to terms with the fact that the working side does not have to deal with this problem. Look for yourself and see how many working dogs have this particular problem whatever other problems they may have. In this respect the Show Breeders should be saying what can we learn from the working people to resolve this particular problem on our side of the fence. What Breeders from other breeds do is nothing at all to do with us unless we want to strive to ruin this breed as has happened in all of the Breeds that you mention. Unlike most other breeds ours has, with the guidance of the SV and WUSV, a properly structured system for absolutely everything within our own breed. The GSD is one breed only and will continue to be so.

To the novice person buying their first dog from a Breeder they accept in complete innocence everything that they are told by the Breeder. In the showring it is up the Judges to make their awards for the betterment of the breed and not fashion or anything else. If they are not able to do the right thing then stop them from judging again. On one occasion at Cruft’s a few hundred of the GSD people signed a petition to say the Chairman of the Kennel Club was not knowledgeable enough to Judge and, the signatures were made after Judging was finished. Although it caused big problems for the breed you have to say Three Cheers to all of the people that signed up for doing the right thing.

Back to the question “Can anyone give an explanation as to why and how this development is beneficial to the breed as a working dog?”

Mackenzie

Mac:
Back to the question “Can anyone give an explanation as to why and how this development is beneficial to the breed as a working dog?”

I think several folks have stated in multiple ways that this "development" (or rather "regression") is detrimental to the working dog. I doubt anybody in their right mind, including the folks who are breeding such dogs, would dispute this.

First, Mac, the show breeders do not see that they have a 'problem'.

Second, you saying that whatever is being done to other breeds has nothing to do with us ( gsd) is being extremely short sighted, IMO. Learning by looking from the out side, as in watching the demise of other groups of breeds, is one way of attaining wisdom and avoiding the same demise.

Third, too many of the working gsd breeders are emulating the show breeders by selecting for the same exagerated structure in order to get the show ratings in order to cash in on the show dog clientele/ buyers....ie. the public who have been misled and bought into the idea that the show dog structure is correct and desirable.

Fourth, there is zero benefit to the workability or soundness in breeding for the structure you question.

The 'Show Scene' in both America and the UK during the middle to late
decades of the 20th Century basically - with very few exceptions - did
not give a toss about working ability and qualifications. They paid lip
service to the breed being a working one, but the numbers of Show people
on both sides of the Pond who were also involved in working their stock
were pitiful. That is what allowed those faults which do reflect on stamina
to be developed without anyone caring to shout "Stop" before it got too
late. (Although, Mac, since when did poor feet NOT impact on performance ?)

I don't think most of them would care to take any lessons on breeding to the
Standard from those owners involved purely with work or sports.

You see what I posted as a 'digression' - I see it as fairly central to the problems.

Agree with the others ^^^, you can't prove a negative.

Again, you prove my point; the show breeders, do not think they have a problem. BTW, that includes every breed of dog, the gsd does not have exclusivity in the structure problem.

It is NOT beneficial, so why should someone explain why it is???

Well, please take my comments positively as I mean no disrespect here
How can anyone answer your question when we do not know what is it you consider overangulation?
People hear and use this term and good number of them do not know what is angulation of a dog is, what is correct angulation and what isn't, whether underangulated or overangulated.

Technically speaking, overangulation is limited to the rear of the dog, too sloping a back is the result of rear overangulation, because when stifle turn (angle) is less than should, the hind assembly becomes lower and thus the excess slope in the back.

Some friends talk about judges as if they can be easily fooled by dog handlers, overstretching a dog and so on, well no judge, especially those judging big shows would be fooled by that.
Judges do not place dogs based on looks only, they also judge them by seeing them move and trot, this fact makes the answer for your question even harder.
So show us what you consider the standard's correct rear angulation, and show us what is overangulation so we can start answering, thanks

The sv dogs are where they are today because of judges' selection....the dogs they put up are selected for breeding, therefore the judges of show dogs from club level to the very top shows are responsible for the whole dog, not just the structure.