Breeding Opinion - Page 2

If it is a live cover breeding then the male can not be over 12 years old... That rule does not count for frozen semen breedings

Re not being able to obtain AKC registration, NOT true.  You would need to be able to prove the mating, but for heaven's sake--given that we now can do DNA testing to confirm whether the 12 year old dog is the sire, why on earth would they completely prohibit it after having permitted it for all these years? 

Excerpted from the AKC rulebook, which can be downloaded from their website:

“No dog or litter out of a dam under eight (8)
months or over twelve (12) years of age at the time
of mating, or by a sire under seven (7) months or
over twelve (12) years of age at the time of mating,
will be registered unless the application for registration
shall be accompanied by an affidavit or evidence
which shall prove the fact to the satisfaction of The
American Kennel Club.”

If you have had a litter registration application form
rejected because the age of the sire and/or dam was
not in compliance with Chapter 3, Section 5 and you
request the AKC to reconsider the matter, you should
submit as much information and material as possible.
The AKC would want to know if the breeding that
took place was a “planned” breeding. We would also
want to know if there were any witnesses to the breeding
who are in a position to identify the sire and dam
and, if so, statements from those witnesses should be
submitted. You should tell us how the bitch was confined
during the entire heat period and whether or not
there was any possibility of the dam being exposed to
any other male during the season in question.
In the case of an overage sire, we would ask whether
a recent sperm count was done by a veterinarian and, if
so, that we receive a copy of the veterinarian’s findings.
If you own an overage male and you intend to use
the dog at stud, we recommend that you have a sperm
count done by your veterinarian. If the veterinarian
finds that the male is capable of siring a litter you
should make several photocopies of his findings, which
can then be submitted in the future with applications
for litters sired by the dog. We would also recommend
that you have a sperm count done every six (6) months
thereafter.

--  End of excerpt

I'd rather have a pup from a 12 year old sire who was still hale, hearty and sound, than one from a 4 year old stud who breaks down [or worse yet, is dead] before he reaches 10 years old.  Looks like a nice pairing, Bob, at least on paper.  And I expect you wouldn't be considering it if you didn't have reason to think it would be a good match, too.

Jyl. check the regs. It used to say that i the dog was under 5 mo or older than 12 the litter could only be registered with a veterinary certificate - I don' t remember whether the certificate was merely one of fertility or the vet had to witness the breeding. Bob worth a call to check. Speaking of frozen did you ever have him collected? I always loved his look and pedigree but have not been in a place to have another dog. I would have loved to breed him to my Remyhttp://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=485683-remy but alas was not meant to be. If you do a sperm check and it looks good might be worth while to collect him. Its cheap to do and store and gives you options down the line with granddaughters and great granddaughters.

Obviously you can tell I don't think age is a factor. I like breeding to old dogs - we know who they are and what they've produced so can compensate better and most importantly it reinforces healthy longevity in your lines. Longevity is easy to select for and can be successfully selected in very short ored increasing the healthy life spans of your dogs.

sent you a pm.

AKC will register a litter sired by a male over 12yrs old. My friend just had it done. She had to DNA her dog and puppies. 

YES IT CAN BE DONE.

I stand corrected. I was just going off of what I have know over the years.

Bob, I really do like Axels pedigree... He goes back to some very nice dogs. If you do the breeding it should be a very nice one. Good luck and hope it works out for you.

TIG, I expect Axel over Remy would have produced some damn fine foundation dogs for future handlers/breeders, too...yet another reason for sadness that she was far too young when she passed. 

Hexe, Thank you for your kind comments. Myone regret is I was not able to breed remy as she deserved. I do think it was a loss to the shepherd world.

Bob, Quick question. Since Elsa is obviously not the young bitch Axel was interested in, who was this young bitch? Remember the histocompatibility is very important to breeding because it selects for complementary immune systems and the nose knows ( the Swed? t shirt tests).

I have read that age denigrates the quality of genes passed on to the pups.  Therefor a stud will produce better in his prime then in his dotage.  Just what I read and have heard.

Haz, I respectfully disagree. My second litter I bred to a 12 yr old who had never been bred before.

He was bred by a german doctor who emigrated to the US and owned by his sister in law. I went out for fish and chips - in New England we had these small hole in the wall fish and chip places that were only open Thu and Fri nights - the old Catholic fish on Friday thing - and saw this dog in a car parked outside. Since the shop was in a residential neighborhood I figured the owner was likely inside so went in and called out who owns the gorgeous Shepherd outside. I had been looking for a stud dog for a year and had not found the right combo of dog, traits, pedigree and longevity. He literally was a gift from the universe. I had wanted to breed to a German dog as my bitch was ¾ German bred and ¼ old American (Nordraak of Matterhorn) but this was 1978 and German dogs were a bit uncommon back in those days at least in my area. Breeding to him resulted in a line breeding on Sgr Volker v Zollgrenzschutzhaus crossed with the lines of Klodo aus der Eremitenklause and his sire Arras with the “spice” of Grief Elfenhain and Raps Piastendamm. Interestingly if you look back in the far reaches of today's working dogs you will  often find this particulary "brew". Oh and the sire brought a pedigree with a strong bitch line - all Sch3's with multiple siblings Sch3 or other advanced working dog titles and SG or V in conformation - try finding that today. Plus he and his parents had been xrayed and cleared by Schnell (orignator of work on HD and using xrays for screening). Xraying was still fairly new the dam of this litter was OFA GS7303 and her dam GS-5296. So what was not to like?

We had 10 wonderful beautiful pups who had great temperment and character and herding ability (IMHO from the Volker lines which is behind Quanto W and Lasso di val sol both of whom produced good herding ability).  I also brought in the longevity I was looking for since Bruno was 12 and his sire was still alive and the three pups I kept lived to almost 14 or over 14 (as did the dam). Brianda I showed in AKC shows ( there were no German shows then) in bred by and actually managed to get her pointed because as the judges critque stated she was a very correct standard bitch but unfortunately in this time of Hawkeye and Hammer not "extreme" enough. I also worked her in obedience and when she was 12 put a basic herding degree on her because I had moved to CA and finally had access to stock work. Her son was also titled in herding and obedience and lived to 14.

So tell me - do I think the sperm was "denigrated" - not on your life.

Hey look what I found on the db that I didn't even know was here. Not her best picture since taken at an angle that makes her curvature of stifle look striaghter than it was. Now I'll have to find the old records so I can fill in the pedigree.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1859929-brianda-von-kaiser-fitz

GsdAdmin - do you remember where you found picture and pedigree?