Looking for good breeder - Page 2

I wouldn't say lying, maybe just misinformed...

Sitasmom

My dogs are out side dog and can go all around my house. Why outside? One good reason: no dog hair in your food.
 

If your objection to having a dog in the house is a little dog hair, you probably should concentrate your pet ownership on fish. With a proper diet and regular grooming you should have practically no more hair in your house than what you yourself shed. I am currently down to 2 shepherds from 4 and I don't have hardly any dog hair in my home. I feed a raw diet and groom them about every 3 months.

I had an interesting SAR situation years ago. Member of the MD group went to the twin towers. His female was SAR certified of course. The dog didn't have what it takes after all,,, she stopped during the search. Imagine you're on a pile and lives were hanging in the balance and your dog decides to take a break. It's tired. Not a good thing if you can Imagine.

I happened to have a drivey young male that I thought would be suitable. I threw his ball in the woods. Woods are about 1/2 acre of briars, undergrowth, something you can't really walk through and the dogs jumping, searching, frantically looking and seeking his ball. We continued to talk about his 911 experience and why he was looking to replace his female.

Meanwhile young male is still running through the briars looking for his ball. He goes on to say what the intensity was like when you're in a set of circumstances where loved ones, on lookers, etc. are looking at you and depending on you to find someone for them. Life hangs on every moment and you're their only hope.

The dogs' still looking for his ball, hasn't given up or taken a break. I think he's looking pretty good, at least I was impressed.

You know that feeling when you're watching TV and the miners are trapped underground and the rescue operation is going on. That sort of anticipation that,,, if you can just get to them in time, they'll be OK. That's how he felt the situation was. He wanted to be one guy that could say; Hey! She found something over here. I think I hear someone calling for help. The rescue team runs over. Your SAR dog gets a ball and her job is over. A few minutes later the big chunk of concrete is removed and a dusty, half starved young woman emerges with cuts and bruises all over and you and your SAR dog are a hero on TV.

Meanwhile the male was still searching for his ball.

He explained that didn't happen. His female gave up after a couple hours. He could feel those watching and the hope they had for her and her success change. Why did she stop? Can't you make her go again? There's still hope.... Why doesn't she keep looking?

The male still hadn't found his ball and he was showing signs of slowing down. It had been well over an hour and I thought he had done pretty good. Not good enough it seemed. This fellow had a new perspective of what SAR really was and he knew what he needed to be effective. If you really want to do SAR, you need a SAR dog not a family pet.

 

Panzersdad

I am thrilled you have dogs that do not shed. My do but none the less, me like many others, I do not want animals in my house. I never run dogs together, but then again I do not have dog fights or a pecking order in my dogs.
 

A dog working for its handler will often go longer without a find than a dog working solely for him/herself. There are more things to look at than simply who has the highest drive for a toy when evaluating puppies. 

REAL SAR is so different than the groups of wannabes who claim their dogs are SAR dogs. I rescued one who was trained in SAR. I don't think that dog could've found a steak in a in a paper bag. It's not a joke or a hobby. If you really want to do it, you really need a dog with the aptitude, and you really need the dedication. 

Amara (call name Sorina), a female from my first litter, went to a veteran K9 handler who now uses her for various search applications. Her main focus now is HRD. It's fascinating training, to me.  http://www.messengernews.net/page/content.detail/id/567369/Stubbs---We-never-give-up-.html

A dog for SAR needs high hunt drive and high prey drive.  I disagree with the dog working for it's handler rather than working for itself.  The dog needs to work independently with a strong desire to find it's target odor. The dog needs to have tremendous drive to work for it's reward, working for it's handler, while a plus will not cut it.  The dog needs to be trained to work independently and for long periods of time.  The dog needs to learn to accept direction from it's handler but to also work on it's own.  Dogs that are dependent on the handler will never be successful under stress or when required to work on their own.  

When selecting a pup from a litter for a working prospect; high toy, prey and hunt drive are critical. The ideal pup will have these high drives, but also seek out people, be friendly and social,  but still be able to go off on their own and explore and play with toys.  The ideal pup will choose a toy over strangers, but still be social enough to play with "fetch" with a stranger.  

Dog1,
Your story of the dog at the World Trade center is very interesting.  There was a whole lot more going on with the dogs at the World Trade Center than lack of drive.  When SAR dogs are trained on live finds and consistently find "dead" or recently dead odor it affects them.  When a dog goes for hours in those conditions, without a live find and no reward it will certainly become frustrated, exhausted, even depressed and will eventually shut down.  

If the OP wants a dog suitable for SAR than a SL may not be the best bet.  As said by Dog1, if you want a dog for SAR find a breeder that consistently produces dogs with the drives necessary to be successful as a working dog, preferably with dogs that are successful SAR dogs.  Shopping for a potential working dog by color is a fast road to disappointment.  

As I said previously, the word "solely" holds key meaning. The WTC is the perfect example of when working for the handler will have some benefit when working long hours without a find/reward. 

Dog1, your story is the type scenario I had in mind when posting. My closest friend has experience in this field, hence my statement.  High drive and high willingness to please and I will dare to say a good bond/working relationship with a handler who truly believes in never giving up can often bolster a dog who's just about to give up after many hours of tireless, fruitless searching in the most depressing situations.  I will admit only a small percentage will ever be in these type applications.  

Before you invest your money in purchasing a dog for SAR work, I strongly suggest you join up with an established SAR group so you can get a real feel for what the training involves.  Most SAR groups that I'm aware of won't take in new handler/dog teams where neither party has any experience; there's a progression that newcomers to the work go through, usually initially serving in the role of 'lost victims' during training searches that take place in all sorts of weather and terrain and conditions. From there, an aspiring handler might be started out on mapping out search areas, or learning to read trail signs, and learning how to read various dogs' indications that they're still on the search. If you make it through playing the lost victim, and show that you really are committed to doing the work, the group will usually start taking you through the paces of how to select a good candidate for the work and how to start the dog out so he or she has a good foundation you'll be able to build upon. 

It's no walk in the park on a sunny day while the dog sniffs around for a kid playing hide-and-seek from it's parents--true SAR training and work is intensive and demanding of both the handler and the dog. Get a taste of what's really involved in it, before you let the romance of 'saving lives' carry you away.  If everyone who said they were interested in doing SAR with their dog actually followed through with it, there would be at least one FEMA-certified SAR team in every major suburb in every state. 

Hexe; great insight! works for everything in life. Go to respected and experienced people.get involved, and then evolve.