Puppy factory? - Page 2

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Deleted my comment, wasn't a productive one.

Jim, my posts are not necessarily directed at you. My full name is Ibrahim Abulaban and I'm from Jordan, I'm not in the business or anything, just my opinion and all respect to yours and others.

Ibrahim

Ibrahim,

Good, I think real names are the foundation of serious discussion.
If you like, send me your email & I wlll put you on my mailing list.

As some people know, I am in the process of writing a book, which
is pretty much complete at pushing 500 pages. One of the conclusions
I have come to is that von Stephanitz, while a great man, was only
a very minor figure as a breeder, which is a fact that I need to
document as it will create concern.

I am in the process of double checking my facts and found the
original reference to all of these litters  very interesting, but
suspicious.

So let me ask a few more questions.

In America the breeder of a litter is the person who owns the
bitch, or has taken out a lease on a bitch. For a kennel name
to appear otherwise would indicate something underhanded,
so one of my mistakes was to assume that this was true in
Germany also.

So when one of the Martin boys dropped by to sign the paper
work on a bitch they had nothing to do with, was that legal
according to SV rules?  Was it considered ethical?

This puts a whole new light on the matter, and makes the
original numbers seem to be more plausible, so I still need
to understand this further.
My views on breeds and breeding can be seen here:
http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch15.pdf
http://www.angelplace.net/Book/Ch17.pdf

As you can perhaps tell, I am in the process of expanding the
chapter on Germany, and am for instance rereading
the von Stephanitz book from cover to cover and finding
some very interesting details.

Ibrahim, I for one would be interested in working dog and
German Shepherd affairs in Jordan, that is the attitude
you run into from non dog people and so forth.

Jim Engel
Phone (815) 568-5963  Before 8:00 PM Chicago time
jimengel@mc.net
http://www.angelplace.net/dog/



 

Jordan is a small country with a small population of German imported GSDs. I have read some of your study/research before and then I thought it was a big effort, though I did not recognize you in this post as the author.
Anyhow, I'm sure you will get answers on your above questions from those who know the answers. For me my protest is only on connecting Walter Martin with " a puppy factory".

Walter Martin deserves due respect for his achievements, you yourself deserve due respect for your studies/research and book. Good luck
 
Ibrahim
My e mail: iabulaban@hotmail.com

We disagree on Mr. Martin, but it is important to be open minded and
willing to factor in new facts and reevaluate in light of new knowledge
and more mature experience.

This is not about Mr. Martin particularly, I have come to see the whole
world of pure bred dogs as basically a scam, just like the diamond
company de Beers  has convinced people to pay outrageous prices
for relatively common carbon crystals by cornering the market.

To me a dog is what he does on the sport field and in real service,
no more and no less. By this standard, the vast majority of show line
German Shepherds - and any other show lines - have no intrinsic
value.
 

I have no problem personally with people having opposite opinion on Walter Martin as long as they present subjective opinion, He remains an important pillar in GSD history whether we like what he did or not.
I disagree on pure breeds, the importance is tremendous. With a pure breed you get consistency in type and temperament plus desired traits. With a non pure bred dog you have no base to build on for future generations.
If you mean you are pro outcrossing to enhance or get back certain traits that is to be decided by the breed authority not by individual breeders. Type is important, extreme type is not healthy. Pls remember that Dr. Stephanitz put all powers in hands of who takes over from him and he set a sort of "dictatorship" leadership in the SV.

Ibrahim

And so the constant stirring and besmerchment of the Martin Brothers
continues ... after all, that is why you put the question, isn't it, Mr Engel ?

WTF has trying to expose either of them for over-production / 'puppy
farming' got to do with trying to prove that Max v Stephanitz wasn't much
cop as a breeder ?  As has been pointed out to you, the production of that
number of puppies is not all that unusual, either then or since.  Myself, I can
never 'support'  churning out large numbers of litters in any circumstances -
but to single out Walter Martin,  or for that matter brother Herman, is dis-
ingenuous.   And do we even know how many were actually born to bitches
owned by all  those involved as founders of the breed, not just the Rittmeister,
in those early days at the turn of the 19th/20th centuries ?  Whether or not
the 'bucket' was in use ?  And given that ' eny fule no '  you have to make a lot
of puppies to establish a 'new' breed.
 
Suggest you talk to Fred Lanting about the Martins, he has a much less prejudiced
view on what they did and didn't achieve. 

Ibrahim,

But what is the point of a pure breed when the consistent temperament
is not suitable for the supposed purpose of that breed?

Jim Engel

Engel - You raise a very important topic. Your title is appropriate in the timeframe
of the Industrial Age. Nowadays, it is called  PM and/or BYB. This was Economics
101 at the time, (AKA greed and/or monopoly) and it's still in effect for some breeders
 today.  And, of course, you need the uninformed consumer!

Let's see, objective (litters/buyers) + plan (stud/bitch) =  goal ($$/buyers) Or vice-versa.
Whichever way you cut it, it is still the end product.  I'm sure you have some tidbits of
info. and hopefully some surprising data.  Some BIG or lil' toes are going to be sore.

Let me know when your finished with your manuscript.
 

Incidentally, denial was NEVER a river in Egypt!