Active police K9 ??? - Page 2

LEO= Law Enforcement Officer

Rik and troopscott  

Melba:  I do agree that not every K9 is suitable for breeding, just the same as not every Schutzhund titled dog is suitable for breeding. It comes
down to the dog itself. If I had the choice between a very nice Sch 3 male and a very nice K9, I would take the K9 every time. Thinking
about this, I would take a herding dog as well. Dogs that are titled in multiple disciplines (Sch, herding, therapy (though not a title, right?)
tracking etc... embodies the versatility our GSD were meant to have. Andy Maly Vah is the absolutle perfect example of what our GSD
was meant to be.

We are not this far apart...
I´m only fighting against the myth " Every police K9 is breedworthy ".
During the last weeks I read a lot of times in ads or in threads "father is police K9". Being a police K9 means being a dog doing it´s job, but people should ask about the rest.

For some years I trained dogs for police in Germany and in the US. Every "job" needs different kind of dogs. They may be great working dogs, but not all of them may be good studs according to the breed standard.

There have been many police k9's that should not have been put into to active duty. Most I seen was dual purpose dogs that should have been single purpose as they lacked the true fight drive forapprehension. Nothing worse than having the bad guy send the dog back to his handler with his tail between his legs.

susie, it is very different here in the U.S. than Germany. You have to meet a minimum standard for breeding. Here one need only convince buyers that dogs are "special". Most pups prduced go into pet homes and most buyers are not experienced and easily impressed with any type "title".

Maybe one person has only the goal of producing and selling puppies and cashing the check. Anything is acceptable to make the dog attractive to buyers. Another may have the goal/knowledege  of producing serious LE dogs and another who thinks of the next 100 years of GSD. #2 and #3 may agree on some things and niether will agree much with #1.

I think I see what you are saying and agree. I don't think anyone would say the SV is perfect, but it is hard to understand those who base breedings on 100+ years of SV proofed dogs and then say the SV is no good. To me, the system is there and it can be whatever the individual wants to make of it.

jmo, (just my opinion )

Rik

susie,
No, we are that not far apart :) Dogs being touted as sired by K9 are, imo, the equivelent of dogs being from XYZ (insert famous granparent here) grandparent.
A stud I would choose would need to be versatile... doesn't need to be the top points dog, flavor of the week etc.. but I would not overlook a dog that is a K9,
SAR dog etc... if it had the other qualities I was looking for and if he complimented my female.

There is so much more to breeding then what is on paper or Schutzhund titles. This, imo, is a starting point.
As a side note, I would love to see more herding opportunities and tests, as I think this trait is slowly dying out.

Melissa

Susie,

Excellent point


"For some years I trained dogs for police in Germany and in the US. Every "job" needs different kind of dogs. They may be great working dogs, but not all of them may be good studs according to the breed standard."



I absolutely agree that not every Police K-9 is breed worthy.  I know a few that would be excellent for breeding, but when you start looking at structure, conformation, drives and temperament the pool is greatly narrowed.  Many Police K-9's that I see and work do not have pedigrees, but may be great dogs.  If you are breeding to sell working dogs and Pedigrees do not matter then I might consider them.  If that is the case then there are some really nice mixes (GSD/Mal/DS) that work very well.  One thing on the positive side is that the dogs are X-rayed but that is only aspect of the overall health of the dog.  

There are plenty of single purpose K-9's that are only suitable for detection work.  I would not consider a single purpose dog for breeding that was unable to do Patrol work.  I like the whole package and temperament is a major component, if a dog is not "strong" enough for Patrol work there is an obvious deficit.  This doesn't mean that there aren't single purpose dogs that can't do Patrol work, just they are only used for detection.  Also, I see plenty of GSD's working as Police K-9's that I would never work, breed or keep as a pet.  Just because a dog is a Police K-9 doesn't mean it is automatically a good dog or a proven dog.  It is getting harder and harder to find suitable GSD's when testing and evaluating dogs for Police work.  2008 was the last time we bought a GSD for our K-9 unit, neighboring PD's with large K-9 units will not even consider GSD's any longer.  And the reason is not that we don't see GSD's for sale; the quality is just not where we need it to be compared to a MAli or DS.  I have an excellent GSD and will have a tough decision when he retires in a few years.  I will probably go back to my current dogs breeder and get a puppy to raise for my next working K-9.  I know this person breeds to high end working dogs and consistently produce dogs that can be exceptional working K-9's, National Level SchH dogs, SAR and therapy dogs.  

Keep in mind, many of the best working GSD's are sold to sport people who compete with them.  PD's can't afford to pay the amounts that these dogs go for.  So, for me I'd rather find a really great proven stud, that has the strength, nerve, temperament, conformation and drives that I want to use.  Actually similar to my dog and who knows I may breed him for myself when I find an excellent female that compliments his pedigree, strengths and temperament.  

Thank you, Slamdunc! You wrote my thoughts - but in your words everything sounds much more logic. I often miss the correct terms....

Keep in mind many of the best working GSD's are sold to sport people who compete with them.  PD's can't afford to pay the amounts that these dogs go for.

Times never change...you will always get 2. or 3. choice...

Melba, I would love to meet the UK civilian Search & Rescue Team which would
reject a volunteer and their GSD because he was 1 1/2 inches too tall.

Come to that, I'd like to meet a dog who knew being too tall would stop him
jumping the woodpile.

You can take the stuff written around the Breed Standard too literally.

Would you breed with a dog who was correct size construction-wise, medium
to strong strength of bone and muscle, good hips  -  but had a mildly
overshot jaw and an umbilical hernia and was 1/4 inch too tall, just
because he was an adequate serving Police Dog with good nerve and
reasonable drive  ?                                  None of those faults
would stop him doing the job; but they would stop him getting a
Survey.  And they are all things that breed on, so I wouldn't do it. 

Hundmutter,
That is why I said you need to take the whole dog into consideration when making breeding choices.
The overshot jaw would be the only thing stopping me from breeding to this dog IF he was everything
else I was looking for and IF he complimented the female I had. Small umbillical hernias can occur
from mom biting the umbillical cord too close... I also said that Generally, dogs that are too big are not
ideal for SAR. That does not mean all. Also, provided the bite was normal, has this dog produced anything
in the past? If so, do his puppies tend to be huge, or normal sized? I'm not a fan of huge GSD, but what's
1/4 in if everything else is perfect, or even an inch AND the bitch is a known producer of smaller standard
dogs.

There is SO much more that goes into it then titles, certifications etc...

Again, not every dog who is a K9 or service dog is a breedable dog, just the same as not every Sch dog
is a breedable dog.

Melissa

Oh, what the hell, let's toss this thought out into the fray, shall we?

I submit to you [the general you, not anyone in particular] that just because a dog has it's SchH3, a show rating and a breed survey is no greater guarantee that it is actually breedworthy, either.  It's a great stretch to call the practicing of scripted activities, in both the bitework and obedience routines real work.  Likewise, it's hardly real work for a dog to follow a carefully-laid out SchH track for a short period of time [hardly hours on end, even at the FH levels]...Most competition dogs don't get to spend their time, day after day, on the move, anymore than most K9's, or SAR dogs, etc., etc. The few handsful of dogs that are REALLY working, day in and day out, are that small percentage which are charged with working flocks FOR REAL, not just twice a week for trial purposes. 

My point is not that dogs in category A are more breedworthy than dogs in category B, but less so than dogs in category C, etc.; it is that too damn many dogs are being bred in the first place, just because people CAN, and because there's money to be made and bills to be paid.