___Bloodlines - Hardness and Aggression___ - Page 2

A large part of the problem is that the politically correct temperament of ALL dogs these days is that they all act like golden retrievers and cocker spaniels in different suits. Most of the advice you see on forums is that if the pups and parents of same don't run up to you practically peeing on themselves with excitement to greet you then RED FLAG, run like hell !!!


rofl funny but true

Well, lets look at what part of the problem is.  What studs get the most pairings?  The ones that win the most titles.  Who wins the most titles?  The dog that wins the most points.  What type of dogs get the most points?  Higher prey oriented dogs!

I am glad folks are talking about balance.  Most folks want a dog that is balanced and have an on and off switch.  I have a dog that has high prey, low nerve (whining) and good hardness ( quick recovery from negative stimuli).  Full hard grips, hits like a freight train.  This dogs litter sibling was in the BSP.  But this dog is a pain in the a$$ to live with.  She has her sch 1 but because of her off the charts prey, she is not a good mother.  She will not settle. This type of dog is a PITA to live with. THis type of dog has to have a job.

Prey is thought of mistakenly as a B S drive.  People forget that prey drive is a serious drive.  Animals kill out of prey drive.  We manipulate prey drive and turn it into object drive.

Now I think we maybe confusing some definitions and saying defence when we may mean social aggression and civil.  I want a dog that is willing to engage on his own or when directed.  Not when he has been backed into a corner and has no place else to go.

Too many good dogs are passed over because they have too many point dedections for pushing, not outing, or poor retrieving.  Some dogs should be on the streets patroling or doing other disciplines such as knpv.  Perhaps you should start looking at GSDs with KNPV and ring titles.  Nothing says agility and athleticism like going over a 10 foot wall.

Kyle

Ugh.

I'm not here to lecture or start debates, as dog trainers often do. We love to find fault with everything, particularly eachother. Granted, it's a profession where idiocy and differences of opinion are an almost daily encounter. I am interested in learning the lines associated with natural aggression. You can always find a dog with high prey to breed to. What you're saying should be common sense, Fenrir. But since it is not, I understand the need you feel to defend the idealism behind a balanced dog. Certainly, balance should be the goal in every breeding program. A dog who is tolerant of welcomed strangers, loyal and goofy with family, gentle with children, works tirelessly for a ball and yet will fearlessly do violence on their behalf is the perfect GSD. However, this is not the aspiration in most breeding programs today.

Duke and Kyle summed up much of the increasingly dominating issue. A dog with much civil may go for something other than the sleeve when pushed, which is not practical in sport work. Therefore, they are bred for confidence and high prey, yet advertized as dogs who are perfectly suited to police and protection work when often, this is not the case. These are not balanced dogs. While they may barely make the cut as patrol and protection with extensive training, without it, you might as well buy a hardened border collie.

As for showlines, what Kyle says at the beginning holds equally true. We breed to studs who are winners of their trade, confirmation over temperment. Aggression, understandably, cannot be tolerated in a show ring. Which brings us back to the ideal balanced dog. This isn't a dog who would needlessly bite their handler or a judge, or go after one of the other dogs in the lineup. But since this balanced dog is so difficult to find, what of the soft, friendly dogs with no aggression or protective instinct who have flawless confirmation? Don't breed them and make thousands on their puppies? Humanity isn't that cool.

I agree wholeheartedly with the KNPV and ring dogs, Kyle. I would love to get into that myself. But finding GSDs in that profession is difficult (as is finding like minded trainers). 


This is off topic from what my inquiry was directed toward. There are plenty of discussions about the problems with GSDs these days, and places for people with elementary knowledge of working dogs (and their raising) to flare this in assumption that they know something the next guy doesn't and base responses on assuptions. So, back on task, guys...

"What dogs, both in showlines and working lines, are known for good nerves and defensive drives in their progency?"

And/or natural protective instincts and aggression, if the terminology better suits.

Just a quick list off the top of my head,
Falk Berkelau, Kim Werseufer, Harro Lechrainstadt,
Olf zur Starken Eiche, Lanzo Tiekerhook,
Zorro z Laager Wall, Nessel Antverpa, Mythus Korbelbach,
Karlo Peko Haus, Mink Wittfield, Gento haus Larwin.

Thats it for now, dinner is hot and the beer is cold

WD, some of those dogs are old. I see people still talking about Fado and he is so far back, I don't know how much he contributes. Op, if your just looking for a pup, call Koos at Tiekerhook. Or you can just look at his dogs pedigrees.

I will ask Koos when he comes here in the spring.

I have a dog from Koos, high in prey, high in defense, clear head, strong nerves, and not even a bit stubborn to work with.  I canfess he's the only Tiekerhook dog I've met myself, but he's the first of a few Tiekerhook's that my previous TD ever admired.  So, I can't say if he's the exception or the norm for that breeding program.  My opinion is, balanced between prey and defense isn't enough by itself.  Confidence, clear headedness, and biddability are equally essential.  But yes, his breeding certainly underlines the value of aggression and hardness, if that's your only concern.

I agree wholeheartedly with the KNPV and ring dogs, Kyle. I would love to get into that myself. But finding GSDs in that profession is difficult (as is finding like minded trainers).

If you look at GSD's doing well in french ring, they come from the same lines doing WUSV, so finding one for FR isn't difficult, just a matter of deciding you want to participate in it.

Thank you for the suggestions. 

And I'd love to participate in ringsport. But there are no clubs or trainers for it in my area, thus "no like minded trainers".

problem is that GSD breeders do too much outcrossing to say :this breeder or this line is producing such type of dogs constantly , so you have to look at the good ones and than , also select the right pup , as I personally know dogs . littermates and ofspring from above mentioned dogs that are not worth much , personally trained with a littersister of daryll s dog , dont even ask , so todays dogs are so genetically diverse that the outcome of any breeding is hard to tell , if you look at a strong line of malinois you will see better predictability

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/belgian_malinois/dog.html?id=300440 

if you look at some of this dogs offspring you see a lot more similarities than in well known GSD  and their offspring

to answer the question of thunder , from my litters ,  one that brought Many dogs with great hardness , agression , reactiveness and  great prey   was from ajaxgirmido bred to a remus chmelovy kvitek doughter , these are not simple dogs , but very good , and I recognize very well what remus brought in and what ajax did , so I did similair combination again with other breeder and got a great male from this combination with a friend , these are dogs I will in the future linebreed on also to keep these abilities available

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=689305 


 http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=705681


also amigo zamat can be mentioned , but he is older , he produced some strong dogs for me 


from german lines Ive seen some nice dogs from kennel geefacker , but dont know what they breed now , mic vd kine is supposed to be good and produce good , and in holland Ive seen strong dogs coming over Fado lutter