How to breed sound dogs. - Page 2

You got that right schaferhunden....lol. first prolem with question is "WHAT IS AN EXCELLENT DOG". I was told many years ago when I hunted hounds that a good dog is one that satisfies its owner.... I know a guy who breeds bluetick hounds for big game (Bear/cat) who does not register his dogs as he says (papers don't tree bear). No records of anything and just just breeds the best dogs he can find and people come from all over to get his dogs. No genotype / phenotype breeding going on and he has been very successful. I am not a breeder by any means as I have yet to produce my b-litter and its been almost 12yrs now. I would like to ask pragerif the litters they are producing now are better than what they produced years ago ? And if answere is yeas in what way have they "BETTERED THE BREED" over their extensive breeding program of many many years? Myself I have a female now who I think will be a very worthy bitch for breeding in my opinion. I believe here in the states there is way too much emphasis on the stud and not on the female. IMO here in the states we are flooded with SchH1 a-normal females the europeans love to "SEND TO AMERICA" as they would never be used in their breeding programs and they are bred EXTENSIVELY here for the $$. I was lucky to have been involved with 2 yoschy v.d. dollenwiese daughters both SchH 3 FH and they were powerhouses. One of which I owned. I think you can easily produce excellent pups by putting 2 excellent dogs together. Just don't fool yourselves as to what EXCELLENT IS. JMO. Kurt

Ok, so when you say, Hans, that you can't just 'put 2 excellent dogs together'; I would assume that you mean that you need to know the dog's lines, & their idiosyncrasies, know the stuff that only the breeder & his/her close associates might know, have the grizzled friend (experience) to remind you of what happened a generation back with such & such lines..(was that old whisper true?); & so forth. Plus the knowledge of conformation, nerve, intelligence, health, & drives that only comes from watching dogs mature over a lifetime.....?

If so, the question becomes, where do you start? I've had 1 litter, I will probably never have another, but I can see the mistakes & strong points of the dogs that resulted. Do you continue with what you've produced? Or throw in the towel & start anew (with different lines?)?
And (this is rhetorical only) would you try to compliment the weak points? Or just use the all round best dog/bitch & seek to strengthen the good points, & bury the flaws? I've wondered which school of thought produces better results, & which breeders belong to each school, or do they flip-flop between schools of thought?

And once you have your 'plan', are you bettering the breed? Or just your members of the breed? Trying to uphold the standard? Or just trying to reach the standard? Or do you anticipate exceeding the standard....surely if every is bettering the breed as a whole, the standard would have to be elevated at some point?

I'm not trying to be a wise-acre...I truly want to know! Some of these questions I have wanted to ask for years now, & this thread is the perfect opportunity, thank you! jackie harris

I would say don't become "kennel blind" and never think you are the only one that knows how to breed good dogs. Jim

you have to produce a sound well rounded dog because no matter how nice the litter is there will be companion dogs in there that have to live in the home with a family 

What are these "companion dogs" from within the litter ?  Are they not pups from the same litter, who share the same sire and dam ? 

The non-companion members of the litter, might exhibit some physical characteristics that are desirable (the phenotype), while the "companion" members of the same litter, may not physically express those same desirable traits (the Phenotype is not attractive), but might/could have a FAR better genotype than the non-companion members of the litter, right ?  And when those "companion" pups are neutered/spayed (as per terms of the sale contract), they never get to pass on their excellent genotype to the next generation.

I think the only way one can characterize whether a particular specimen is "companion" or not, is NOT by examining the exterior of the dog (the phenotype), but by doing a full genetic mapping and then seeing if it should be categorized as such.....and similarly, the specimens that are categorized as non-companion, but are actually genetically inferior (again not determined by examining the visible physical traits but by doing a genetic mapping) to the "companions", should not be bred.  Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the case in the wider world of dog breeding, where breeders do observations of the physically expressed traits (temperamental and physical) and determines what should be "pet quality" (companion) versus others.

Many a time, a "champion" stud turns out to be a total fizzle, while his less well-known brother (who is not as well endowed, physically or temperamentally) seems to be the star of the litter, when it comes to passing on the desirable traits onto the next generation.......that is assuming the less well-known brother gets to breed and not condemned by these silly breeders into "companion" status.

Just a pet peeve of mine when people talk about pet-quality (companion) versus non-pet-quality (breedability worthy) and condemning certain members of the litter to "companion" (non-breedable) status.

How?
Devote your life to it, take your time, learn as you go.
No one is born to it or learned to be an expert from a book.
Results take years to see and lessons sometimes come hard.
I get a tickle every time I hear improving the breed.
Know the breed and keep the standard, including the small print and details.
Don't pawn off your mistakes to others, while we're talking about breeders, and don't plan on getting rich.
If your not doing out of love your already on the wrong track.

Moons.

What are these "companion dogs" from within the litter ?  Are they not pups from the same litter, who share the same sire and dam ?
  
In my opinion the dogs I would consider as a companion will not have the drive I look for in a working dog.  They are a dog more content to play with the kids and lounge on the sofa than chase a criminal, search for drugs or compete in sport work.  They are pups from the same litter but just as children with the same parents there are differences in the way the individuals personality or temperament comes through. 

aaykay those dogs with less desirable phenotype ALSO have a less desirable genotype when it comes to the visible, undesirable traits. Let's say, for example, the breeder has a superb bitch crop up...superb in every way, except for an ear that refuses to stand. Instead of getting rid of the bitch as a pet, he/she keeps her as a breeding dog. (Hey, she has TITLES...she got her puppy championship!)

She produces well, but she also throws a whole passle of pups with weak ears!

Or what about those dogs with too much white on their feet? A breeder may hide the white with dye, and go on to title the dog and breed it, but that gene for excess white is still going to be there. How do you think we got so many showline dogs with large white patches on their chests, and white toes and feet?

I think we need to be MORE careful about phenotype (genotype, too, because one is merely the visible expression of the other), not less!

The dogs that do not exhibit the pheno traits will also pass on those traits and have them surface if they are bred to a mate that carries that gene also. Its not like the surfacing of a trait resulted from one parent....it takes both parents! And if one puppy shows white and another littermate doesn't show white, THEY BOTH will produce the white when bred to a carrier. They both won't if not bred to a carrier. That's why you get so many pups with white in litters in which both parents didn't exhibit white in phenotype.

I think it finally boils down to breeding for the "total dog", than breeding for angulation or ears or hips or elbows or whatever.  If the "total dog" is excellent, but probably has a weak point (ALL dogs have weak points), then the breeder should pick the appropriate partner that can compensate for that weakness in the next generation, while preserving the desirable characteristics (not readily available elsewhere) in the gene-pool......not eliminate the individual entirely from the gene-pool and lose those desirable characteristics for ever.   If the "wrong" partner is picked (by just throwing two "excellent" individuals together), then yes, that "hidden" weakness will surface in large numbers in upcoming generations.

Breeders look for certain specific traits (the flavor of the day, so to say) and eliminate the others who don't exhibit those specific "flavor of the day" characteristic (who in turn have several other desirable characteristics that one wants in the "total dog") from the gene-pool.  Over time, you have the situation similar to the Am.show lines, with hyper-angulated "pleasing looking" specimens that drag themselves through the ground on their hocks.....along with less delineation of secondary sexual characteristics, resulting in bitchy dogs and doggy bitches.

Nadeem9 asks:
Prager what do you mean by "putting two excellent dogs together??"  Does this mean the farmer who breeds his awesome working dog to another awesome working female in the same city??

Or do you mean two "excellent" dogs which have HD fair and above in pedigrees and both with great drives , civil, biddable and great temperament bred together without knowing anything else about the dogs in the  pedigrees??

I am no breeder and have no intention of becoming one but in the latter case what is it you think could possibly go wrong??

What I mean  is that the phenotype ( what you see outward on the dog) of the dog may be excellent, but his genotype  ( that is all genetic background which you see and do not see) will always have some skeletons in the closet. The only way you will know about these skeletons is by observing the dogs 3 or preferably 5 or as many generations back as possible and their littermates and their progeny.  You can also discover what is in genotype by observing results of close  linbreeding or inbreeding.
 I keep a file on as many dogs as I can lay hands on and what they produced and on their littermates. That is why I am urging  beginning breeders to work with experienced successful breeder who is willing to teach you.
Prager Hans