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by amber1 on 18 December 2011 - 22:12
Wildmoor i didnt notice the mistake in the ped, thanks for corection. i cant believe they alredy had a litter before nowing about the lines. i assumed they most likely didnt no. on both those litters there are diferent mistakes in each pedigree, how can they not notice the mistake they made from one ped to another ??
i feel for megans owners, i didnt meen to cause upset to u from my mesage and i apologise if i have
i feel for megans owners, i didnt meen to cause upset to u from my mesage and i apologise if i have
by Abby Normal on 19 December 2011 - 00:12
Wildmoor
Well, I am trying to find the words for what I want to say. I cannot understand how someone can have such casual disregard for the breed and for the puppies they produce and their prospective owners, to deliberately ignore such a terrible defect in their lines.
Maybe they need to experience it first hand to understand the true implications and not repeat it and yet I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It's a shame they don't feel the same way.
Well, I am trying to find the words for what I want to say. I cannot understand how someone can have such casual disregard for the breed and for the puppies they produce and their prospective owners, to deliberately ignore such a terrible defect in their lines.
Maybe they need to experience it first hand to understand the true implications and not repeat it and yet I wouldn't wish it on anybody. It's a shame they don't feel the same way.
by GSD2727 on 19 December 2011 - 03:12
I am in no way being mean, but honestly why would that surprise anyone? That someone would use a dog/lines known for health issues when they are obviously willing to use this pedigree to begin with? No disrespect to John and his dog who had epilepsy! But there are no titles or anything in this pedigree.... looks just like a BYB pedigree. If someone doesnt have the ethics enough to breed at least decent lines, I wouldnt expect them to have enough ethics to care about health issues. I mean there are not even OFA's in this pedigree listed.
Obviously health issues can pop up in well bred lines too, but when you have a full pedigree of "nothing" (no titles, no showing, no health testing, just BYB mish mash lines), I would not be surprised if the resulting pups had a whole host of health issues!
No different than most other BYB'ers :( Sad...
Obviously health issues can pop up in well bred lines too, but when you have a full pedigree of "nothing" (no titles, no showing, no health testing, just BYB mish mash lines), I would not be surprised if the resulting pups had a whole host of health issues!
No different than most other BYB'ers :( Sad...
by AmbiiGSD on 19 December 2011 - 07:12
GSD2727 but the parents are BVA'd.... both hips and elbows.... so technically it should be fine!!! (leaning heavily on the sarcasm there) 
by GSD John on 19 December 2011 - 10:12
GSD2727 I take no offence at your post, but we were surprised, as we were certainly not aware of any health issues in these lines, as the Breeder who at that time was an Accredited Breeder,and had all her pedigrees checked (so were were led to believe)and had no reason to disbelieve that statement.
As regarding the Ethics of the Breeders, there were many people who had dogs from these lines who gave glowing reports, with no health issues that caused any concern, and before buying our dog we got to know the Breeder over a period of time, and thought they were honest and caring and of course went on the 30+years of experience in this Breed, and from word of mouth.
We already had 2 Longcoat GSD's, one from from Carozand Enzo,(Phoebe) who will be 9 years old and also has an overshot jaw, and one from Zenno Von Hunnegrab, who died a week before Megan aged 7 years old with a rare adrenal tumour,great male, never a days illness, such a loss, Megan in our opinion should have had that same chance at life, regardless of titles.
After a period of time, and many tests etc. the Veterinary Surgeons at the Royal (Dick) Veterinary College, diagnosed Meagn with Primary Epilepsy, we then contacted Sheila Rankin, who was a great help, Chris Hazell (GSD Breed Health Co-ordinator) and D. Cullum and Dr. M. Willis who all checked this pedigree. Dr. Willis over a long period of time explained in great detail about lines etc. and of the condition of Canine Epilepsy.
Afterwards we then made the pedigree public, and after a year of meeting the requirements of the KC a letter was sent from the Vet to the KC with a full and accurate diagnosis of Epilepsy so they could inform Both, Breeders of this condition being in their lines and advise them not to use them.
Megan, may have not had titles but she was never the less loved and cared for, and as for this Breed, we have no claim at all to working any of our dogs,we do however live in an area where our dogs have spent many great times, in the fields, and enjoy road work, and a good training club, our only claim is that since the diagnosis of Epilepsy, and these lines that carry it, we have fought hard to help people be aware and help encourage them to get their Pedigrees checked, and have learned, through learning from others and research, Epilepsy has no preferance to colour, coat or titles, so sad but true.
As this post has shown obviously not all feel the same regarding using/not these lines, and are willing to take that gamble, that is where the problem lies, not the coat,colour,title but the fact that people are still willing to take risks, they say "we will deal with the problem when we produce it", but when they do produce it, it is kept quiet and the problem becomes the puppy buyer's and the lines continue to be used.
Although not a Breeder I do believe that the future of this Breed will be significanly impacted by the way that Breeders react to this problem.
John Wilkinson
For MeganX
As regarding the Ethics of the Breeders, there were many people who had dogs from these lines who gave glowing reports, with no health issues that caused any concern, and before buying our dog we got to know the Breeder over a period of time, and thought they were honest and caring and of course went on the 30+years of experience in this Breed, and from word of mouth.
We already had 2 Longcoat GSD's, one from from Carozand Enzo,(Phoebe) who will be 9 years old and also has an overshot jaw, and one from Zenno Von Hunnegrab, who died a week before Megan aged 7 years old with a rare adrenal tumour,great male, never a days illness, such a loss, Megan in our opinion should have had that same chance at life, regardless of titles.
After a period of time, and many tests etc. the Veterinary Surgeons at the Royal (Dick) Veterinary College, diagnosed Meagn with Primary Epilepsy, we then contacted Sheila Rankin, who was a great help, Chris Hazell (GSD Breed Health Co-ordinator) and D. Cullum and Dr. M. Willis who all checked this pedigree. Dr. Willis over a long period of time explained in great detail about lines etc. and of the condition of Canine Epilepsy.
Afterwards we then made the pedigree public, and after a year of meeting the requirements of the KC a letter was sent from the Vet to the KC with a full and accurate diagnosis of Epilepsy so they could inform Both, Breeders of this condition being in their lines and advise them not to use them.
Megan, may have not had titles but she was never the less loved and cared for, and as for this Breed, we have no claim at all to working any of our dogs,we do however live in an area where our dogs have spent many great times, in the fields, and enjoy road work, and a good training club, our only claim is that since the diagnosis of Epilepsy, and these lines that carry it, we have fought hard to help people be aware and help encourage them to get their Pedigrees checked, and have learned, through learning from others and research, Epilepsy has no preferance to colour, coat or titles, so sad but true.
As this post has shown obviously not all feel the same regarding using/not these lines, and are willing to take that gamble, that is where the problem lies, not the coat,colour,title but the fact that people are still willing to take risks, they say "we will deal with the problem when we produce it", but when they do produce it, it is kept quiet and the problem becomes the puppy buyer's and the lines continue to be used.
Although not a Breeder I do believe that the future of this Breed will be significanly impacted by the way that Breeders react to this problem.
John Wilkinson
For MeganX
by Abby Normal on 19 December 2011 - 14:12
GSD2727
I know what you are saying, and I agree with you in principle and in an ideal world. It is a whole broader picture you refer to. In the UK it is quite complex, since our British Breed survey does not currently insist upon titles to be granted a breed survey, nor does our Kennel Club require them, so the lack of titles is not solely limited to the *pet* market or BYB.
I think we must also simply accept that many GSD will be bred solely for the pet market, many of those by genuine hobby breeders, many BYB. It may not be how we would like it to be, but it will always be. Sadly I think that the public with their extreme distaste for the shape of the modern showline dog are driven more and more into the arms of 'pet' GSD breeders who breed a dog that looks like a dog, and of a type that they do like the look of. I've heard it a thousand times, though I would like to qualify that is an entirely personal theory.
So, on the premise that we cannot stop it, we can at least hope to improve it, at least on the health front.
I know what you are saying, and I agree with you in principle and in an ideal world. It is a whole broader picture you refer to. In the UK it is quite complex, since our British Breed survey does not currently insist upon titles to be granted a breed survey, nor does our Kennel Club require them, so the lack of titles is not solely limited to the *pet* market or BYB.
I think we must also simply accept that many GSD will be bred solely for the pet market, many of those by genuine hobby breeders, many BYB. It may not be how we would like it to be, but it will always be. Sadly I think that the public with their extreme distaste for the shape of the modern showline dog are driven more and more into the arms of 'pet' GSD breeders who breed a dog that looks like a dog, and of a type that they do like the look of. I've heard it a thousand times, though I would like to qualify that is an entirely personal theory.
So, on the premise that we cannot stop it, we can at least hope to improve it, at least on the health front.
by GSD2727 on 19 December 2011 - 16:12
First off, I am not familiar with how things are done in the UK at all, so cannot comment on that. I didnt realize this pedigree was from the UK and had UK hip ratings? I just didnt see anything listed on the pedigree when I looked at it. Regardless, I still would not even consider a puppy out of a pedigree like this just based on the "lack of" everything!
Abby, of course many GSDs are bred for the "pet market" but that doesnt mean we have to accept it or support that! And yes I do know that some BYB's really do not know better, but that is where education comes in. IMO there is no way to "improve" BYB lines. They are what they are... That is why when someone is interested in a puppy they should research the breed, educate themselves and steer clear of these types of breeders. Just because someone is nice, been breeding for a long time and has happy customers doesnt mean that they are good breeders!
JMO of course
Valerie
Abby, of course many GSDs are bred for the "pet market" but that doesnt mean we have to accept it or support that! And yes I do know that some BYB's really do not know better, but that is where education comes in. IMO there is no way to "improve" BYB lines. They are what they are... That is why when someone is interested in a puppy they should research the breed, educate themselves and steer clear of these types of breeders. Just because someone is nice, been breeding for a long time and has happy customers doesnt mean that they are good breeders!
JMO of course
Valerie
by Abby Normal on 19 December 2011 - 17:12
GSD2727
Parents are hip and elbow scored. Scores don't automatically appear on UK pedigrees, but you can look them up on the UK Kennel Club database. The hip/elbow rating is usually shown separately. I don't know whether any dogs further back are hip/elbow rated or how good or bad they are.
Again, I totally agree with you. Everyone interested in a breed should research the breed inside out, breeders etc etc.......if only. I also agree that the number of years in a breed does not necessarily equal a good breeder, but that may not be how an average puppy buyer sees it.
Believe me I do not support it, far from it, but neither do I believe these breeders should be ignored and left to get on with it. If they don't want to show (though now LCs are accepted that may change) if they don't want to title - OK can't change that. BUT there is and never will be an excuse not to health test and for that we CAN keep challenging it and bringing it out into the open, in the hope that it will change these practices.
Education is key, for both puppy buyers and 'would be' breeders IMO.
Parents are hip and elbow scored. Scores don't automatically appear on UK pedigrees, but you can look them up on the UK Kennel Club database. The hip/elbow rating is usually shown separately. I don't know whether any dogs further back are hip/elbow rated or how good or bad they are.
Again, I totally agree with you. Everyone interested in a breed should research the breed inside out, breeders etc etc.......if only. I also agree that the number of years in a breed does not necessarily equal a good breeder, but that may not be how an average puppy buyer sees it.
Believe me I do not support it, far from it, but neither do I believe these breeders should be ignored and left to get on with it. If they don't want to show (though now LCs are accepted that may change) if they don't want to title - OK can't change that. BUT there is and never will be an excuse not to health test and for that we CAN keep challenging it and bringing it out into the open, in the hope that it will change these practices.
Education is key, for both puppy buyers and 'would be' breeders IMO.
by Wildmoor on 19 December 2011 - 19:12
I think a few people on here are missing the point; apart from the fact this thread was started by other LC breeders!
The couple who owned Megan as 'pet' owners did the best they could within their means ie got to know the breeder, spoke with many other owners of dogs from the same lines, knew they worked their dogs in obedience, joined various forums ...............
the problem occurs when a breeder is notified of a serious problem in the lines but keeps it quiet and knowingly carries on breeding - and there are many out there from all lines, it wouldn't be as bad if they kept it quiet but then retired both dam & sire so they are removed, although it would better if they also at least notified Chris Hazel so there is at least a record or persuade the pup/dog owner to notify
this was/is a problem that you can not health test for and until one is developed at least be honest, in the mean time request swabs, send DNA along with pedigrees of not only affected dogs but ones that are clear over the age of 7yrs, donate money to research etc if everyone contributed in any way they can then maybe one day the mode of inheritance and a viable test maybe found!
by GSD John on 19 December 2011 - 20:12
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and maybe we should have done more research, but the facts are Megan had Epilepsy in her lines which were not known to us at the time, but when we were informed of what was there we did make it very public, it was not an easy decision to make but it was a necessary one.
We did care for her, which sadly was not enough to save her, but have continued to encourage others to get their Pedigrees checked before buying a puppy. What I am trying to say is we did not Ignore the problem, "some" Breeders can /do ignore the problem hoping that it will go away, I very much doubt that or they could step up to the table and recognise that they do have a problem and deal with it, as we as "pet owners" have done.
Until there is a test available Breeders do need to avoid producing more affected dogs, as this disease can inflict terrible suffering on the dog, and also do not hide the fact that your dog has seizures as the Breed you love will suffer.
Margaret Wilkinson
We did care for her, which sadly was not enough to save her, but have continued to encourage others to get their Pedigrees checked before buying a puppy. What I am trying to say is we did not Ignore the problem, "some" Breeders can /do ignore the problem hoping that it will go away, I very much doubt that or they could step up to the table and recognise that they do have a problem and deal with it, as we as "pet owners" have done.
Until there is a test available Breeders do need to avoid producing more affected dogs, as this disease can inflict terrible suffering on the dog, and also do not hide the fact that your dog has seizures as the Breed you love will suffer.
Margaret Wilkinson
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