let's compare something - Page 2

"Never underestimate the power of a small group of people to change the world.  In fact, it is the only way it ever has."  Margaret Mead






Kim

As fas as I know there is only one Am bred AKC champion with a Sch3, KKL1,  CDX, and various agility titles. He was bred, trained, handled by Helen Gleason. Helen has trained and handled at least 3 Sch3 (2 females), 2 Sch2,  2 IPO3, a UDT, a UD,2-3 CDX's many, many agility titles, herding, you name it. She does it all herself.  Has exhibited a female at the Sieger (half sister to Ando v AltenbergerLand) that received a standing ovation from the gallery fo rher bitework and went on to place V89 without ever having been campaigned in Germany or anywhere else. She breeds always for that elusive golden middle.

Her AKC Sch3 champion is out of an ASL sire and a GSL Sch3 dam. ASL breeders for the most part are either not interested in Sch (don't want to train their dogs to bite, misunderstand the intent of Sch) OR they are not able to find a club to train with where SL's are welcome. Also there are not many, if any, pro trainers willing to take on ASL. Their bread and butter are the people who import or buy dogs and for whatever reason do not train them themselves. ASL people are more hands-on and wouldn't be too inclined to send their dogs to Germany for titles.

BTW, our training club in the Tampa Bay area welcomes ALL dogs to OB and protection training. Anyone wanting any information can pm me here. We have SL's WL's, combos of both like my dog, presos, rotties, dane, even a wolf hybrid. Some already titled, some working on getting it done.

Dog Bum,

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this:

"It's generally the people with the least experience who perpetuate the WL/SL antagonism."

You can't deny thererYou can't deny that t Yyy

 Now this is just my opinion but I think a lot of very experienced people post on this site I do not get the impression that most are perpetuating the antagonism. 
I think many are serious about it and in bemoaning the obvious are merely trying to start a dialogue that will, hopefully, lead to an understanding which in turn may lead to a resolution.  That being what Starrchar, Newbie and vonissk are saying; a Golden Middle.
You can't deny that there is a difference.  Since we can see the physical differences, are you saying there exists WL that won't do bite work as well?  And I use the term WL to encompass those that are K9, SAR, guide dogs, herding.  Being the wife of a K9 officer I just want my 2 guys to come home at night.  It's about more than points on a field.  I love Schutzhund also and I like lotsa of points but there is more to it in my world than that.
We've had 1 working line dog and 2 showline dogs who were K9.    Not all dogs, in my expereince, are fit for working dogs.   I've had a few showline Sch II dogs that would not cut it as a police working dog.  There are many jobs in K9 work that is not covered in Schutzhund such as crowd control and building searches for example.


  Some Schutzhund dogs just don't get it.
"economis influences" and politics go hand in hand in my opinion.  It doesn't matter if you are talking dogs or teacups.  But I think that may be whole other post.

Kindest regards

good post Siantha, I didn't see it while I was typing mine.
Dog Bum I agree it is all about the dog

This was Tony's second K9.  He was an awesome boy in every sense of the word. 
This photo was done (1 in a series of about 8) by the photographer as an exhibit for a local festival. the second photo is Lobo and my 2 year old granddaughter.  Lobo passed away October 8, 2011 at 14 1/2 years of age.

Wonderful photos and good information from someone who knows what it takes to make a K-9 dog.  Adorable child, beautiful dog. 14 1/2 years is a very long life for a GSD. I haven't been able to get one much past 10.

Thanks!!

Thanks Blitzen,


We will be grieving Lobo for a long time.  He was a detector dog (explosives) as well as a patrol dog.  The secret service and ATF were in town ahead of George W during the last presidential campaign, individuals from both agencies were impressed by his methodical work.  They both wanted to load him up in their vehicles......uhhh. No.
Kudos to you for your post as well, I just finished reading it....I wish I lived in Tampa especially this time of year!

I wish you lived here too, Charity. We also have a great area training faclity that offers classes like nose work, dancing, flyball, dock diving. There are so many more dog people here than where I lived in PA.  

I know you are still grieving this wonderful dog who served so well.  October 8th must seem like just yesterday.

Many with GSD's accomplish so much that is never credited to their efforts. They prefer to keep a low profile and remain under the radar. Every now they deserve to be ratted out LOL. 

I am sorry I have not replied as I have not been on the computer lol life is busy. All of these replies are fantastic. I worked dogs in SAR and other WORKING venues and I have conformation shown, I am just now working on the sport aspect for titleing. I have  worked with a sch group years ago when I was sar but we were not allowed to train our dogs bitework though I did help the other members with their dogs bitework training. I would have been in sport earlier than this if the last state I lived in for the last 8 years had clubs that were not anti sl. So much time wasted but my dog then ended up with medical conditions anyhow even though the experience would never have been a waste. I just get frustrated with wl downing sl work but they do not want to see them in their clubs to help them get better. Perhaps we can make a list of clubs that are sl friendly to start off with? Give people options to better learn how to do better in this sport? I expect only the best from my dogs and select them for work drive even though they are sl. I want to see more top quality wl in the conformation ring bumping up the bite work expectations at the shows and raising the bar.  The only way any of this can improve is to meet in the middle, that is, unless people are just looking for something to pick at and the breed is not really their top priority.

     

Well Newbie glad to see you're back!
You got us into this mess!
Just kidding...I am enjoying this post....good therapy I guess.

I get tired of people downing people.  period.  My bottom line is I wish we could all work together and enjoy each others company and enjoy our dogs.  Our time with them is way too short.

I know what you mean about the wl vs. sl.  I've seen a little of that locally.   And then there is the training director at a club south of me who is more driven to work her dogs than anyone else's.  She doesn't seem to have the patience to coach newcomers or dogs with a training issue.  It doesn't matter if their wl or sl.  She has her own agenda.

The Buffalo Schutzhund club is really good.  They have members with wl/sl GSDs, Rotties, and other breeds.  The training director is very personable and willing to help everyone.  The problem for me is they are a UScA club and I belong to WDA.  hmmmm.....
I am blessed because I have an open invitation to K9 training.  I go when I am able and they are a great bunch of people who have taught me a lot.  Not exactly a club atmosphere though!

Blitzen, I am in PA also so I know what you mean.  I have thought about starting a club here but I'm not sure how to go about it.  I know there are requirements for insurance and such and also just seeing if there is enough local interest.
Your club is exactly what I'm talking about!  I love the videos on youtube of dog dancing.
If I'm in town (my son lives in Tampa) maybe I could visit the club??????

Yes, the other major issue I have on my mind... I am UScA and live on east coast where it seems there is much more WDA activities as well as some upcoming shows I want to enter that are WDA. The 8 years in a state of anti sl attitude was PA, south central to be exact. The attitude about dogs there is dismal to begin with. To the people there the only thing about dogs is the money to be made off them it seemed. I hated trying to enjoy my dogs in PA.

        I guess I am either going to have to switch to WDA or find another way around the issue. I would have signed up for NASS had this not been an issue. Both are loosing out competitors making them choose IMO. Someone who is more knowledgable on these issues should begin a thread to help us please?