Hard dogs - Page 2

And I had this type of dog once, 20 years ago, and never came across one like him again; working dogs today have too much play and prey drive I think; they are missing aggression, and again, I am not speaking about misplaced, unjustified aggression, but the one that makes a species survive, necessary for genetic survival...

Some people have touched on this topic in the db in some very interesting threads

You both are lumping too many traits and attributes into "hard."  You (ooops, can I say that) are making this too hard. 

A hard dog is a dog that can handle an adverse situation or correction and have the resiliency to bounce back and not be negatively affected.  A hard dog can work under stress, or be corrected and still stay on task.  The biggest thing, IMO about hardness is the resiliency, being able to overcome adverse situations and still stay in drive.

Aggression and hardness do not necessarily go together, a soft dog can be aggressive.  An insecure fear biter may be aggressive but is not hard.  Because a civil dog or a dog that is suspicious does not make it hard.  A hard dog certainly does not have to be handler aggressive.   A handler sensitive dog may have a good degree of hardness to external and environmental stimuli, yet be sensitive to the handler. 

I have a high drive, hard, not handler aggressive, dog with great aggression and super grips.  He is stable and clear headed and bounces right back form any unpleasant experience.  He has several 'real" street bites and is social around the SWAT team members and other Officers.  Strong nerves, super confident with little or no suspicion.  Simply because you (oops) are not a threat to him what so ever.   

I think I understand what the OP is trying to say. And I very much agree with him that there are too many prey/play driven dogs today. It seems to be all about excelling in sport. 
It's hard to find a WELL balanced dog; between defense and prey drive. Dogs obviously need both because you can only push a high prey driven dog so far before they crumble under pressure/stress; they need defense to want to keep up the fight. On the reverse, too defensive of a dog can often be nervy and, if worked the wrong way, can end up a disaster. It is (generally speaking) prey drive that is used to start protection training.
I haven't found a dog that I am amazed with to this point, but if I do, I'm assuming (maybe I'm wrong) that it will be an import. There are two law k9 officers that I have seen train their dogs, and one (an import from Belgium, I think) IS what I would call a "hard" dog. A dog I would love to own. Great balance of drives and not at all nervy. Loves his handler, and doesn't have handler aggression, but is definitely hard-headed in that corrections don't seem to faze him easily. Also, NOT social with strangers. (oops)
I'm interested in how others perceive "hard" dogs.
 
 

Im not sure I'm conveying my message right... The dog I'm referring to takes more time to bond because he doesn't want to accept you... And he doesn't accept you because he is naturally dominant, not because he fears you; it's the type of dog who's respect you have to earn... I don't think there are many dogs like that out there. I think someone at the beginning of the thread understood what I was saying...

Everyone is hung up on "prey drive" these days.  Look at the video of the malinois chasing the soccer ball.  Obviously, the dog has prey drive.  A good Police K-9 needs high prey drive, that is critical to a functioning working dog.  When I test potential Police dogs one of the first things I test is prey drive and ball drive.  If the dog lacks prey drive or has mediocre prey drive it is out.  I don't care if the dog has super civil aggression or is loaded in defense.  I can back a dog down pretty easily when it is loaded in defense. 

Police K-9's need high prey drive, prey brings speed, speed brings power.  Prey and ball drive keeps the dog searching all day for dope or explosives.  I rather have over the top prey drive than super high defense drive.  Of course, I prefer a balanced dog with high prey and nice defense. 

Like Jim says, there's too much being lumped into the discussion here that has nothing to do with hardness.

Disregard my use of the word "hard" dayleret, didn't want to make a statement confusing with semantics; I'll try again; there's a Belgian dog imported here, ended somewhere down south who sent three people to the hospital before one person was able to put a III on him; he only gave his respect to one person; super aggression and super nerves, social as well, but independent, dominant, the dog I described as "hard" at the beginning of my thread. I guess we could use the word dominant which accidentally I interchange with hard, as "hard to handle"... Hope I'm making my point better. And going back to my original question, would you consider a dog with these characteristics; a dog with extreme ball and hunt but stubborn to "fuss" to your command; a dog who thinks is better than you - dominant - until you are able to submit him to you will, like that dog down south only one person was able to title...

  Of course, I prefer a balanced dog with high prey and nice defense. 

Can some one explain shortly what is a balanced dog? Is it a balance between defense and prey? If a dog is low in both the prey and defense is it still called a balanced dog? And how do you determine it is balanced? what does it show to you to guess it is balanced?

Ibrahim

Ibrahim,
I will send you a PM explaining my thoughts a "balanced dog" and how prey and defense interact.

Jim