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by Doberdoodle on 29 August 2010 - 00:08
Anyway, I can't see a well trained dog needed a shock collar for the rest of its life, as Hassen says they should wear them lifelong, and I don't think police dogs should be necessarily wearing them or needing them. What if you forget to charge it one day or something. If they are allowing a K-9 to be handled by anyone else but the one officer handler, that says something about the program. I don't know much about Hassen or his qualifications and educational background to train police K-9s.
by Prager on 29 August 2010 - 00:08
Results do not justify the means. One trainer once told me : "Go with the dog and not against it". I believe that. And I believe that this type (e collar) of training is based on going against the dog. At least what I have seen on the video.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by Doberdoodle on 29 August 2010 - 00:08
I also do not believe you should have to "sell" your methods, if it's a hard sell and it's tough to sell people on the idea, then maybe something is off?
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 00:08
Hans,
I agree with you. Many other ways to accomplish this, many better ways, IMO.
Doberdoodle,
I agree with you also, we have similar solutions. I will comment on this:
Also, I am wondering, are they using the shock collar at all while the dog is muzzled and fighting? Why are they using one at all? What police departments are using shock collars on their dogs? I believe the dogs should be trained without having to depend on the shock collar. They are not truly "off leash" trained otherwise.
Well, Hans summed up my first point. Fred Hassan is a very popular trainer and excellent at marketing his programs. He is a big advocate of E collars and uses them a lot. That is why he is using the E collar on this dog.
Many Police Departments use E collars. My dog wears an E Collar everyday while we are working. I have given my thoughts on this before and I will summarize my feelings and why I use the collar:
First, it is the only correction collar that can not be used against my dog in a fight with a combative subject. Police dogs have been choked and killed by choke collars. Prongs collars can also be used against a dog in a fight.
Secondly, it is a means to reach out to my dog at a distance. If I send my dog and he targets the wrong person, I can effectively correct him, down him or recall at a distance. Yes, it can be said that all dogs should be under such great control that no matter what happens the dog should be so clear headed that they will respond to every command the first time, every time. Well things can happen that cause Murphy's Law to take effect. A hard dog in high drive may need a reminder at crucial times. I am smart enough to know that my dog is not perfect every minute of every day. I prefer to be prepared and have a means of correction on my dog at all times.
Third: it has a "beeper" function. I can push a button and the collar beeps, this is a recall command for my dog and is used tactically. I can be searching a school or large building at night in complete darkness. The dog can be 200 yards or more away from me in a school hallway or large building in the pitch black. Rather than say his name or yell "here" giving away my position and losing the element of surprise I can recall him by "beeping" his collar.
Last but not least, there are those of us that understand how to use the collar correctly and understand the intricacies and nuances of it's use. I know that you have a great deal of knowledge and experience on positive and negative reinforcement. I use the E collar in a similar fashion to a prong collar and rarely ever correct my dog with it. But sometimes a low level nick can regain focus or even enhance and stimulate drive. Similar to a little pop on a prong collar.
There is the right way to use an E collar and there is the wrong way, like any training tool. I have done a lot of research and spent a lot of time working with E collars. Once people get past the point of just zapping their dog, and realizing that an E collar is not for frying dogs it can be a great tool in the right hands. My dog is pretty well trained and I wouldn't go to work with out it. I could spend a fair amount of time here writing about what I feel is the proper way to use an E collar and why it works for me. I am not planning on doing that on a public forum.
JMO FWIW,
Jim
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 00:08
Jim
by buckeyefan gsd on 29 August 2010 - 02:08
good thread though
by Doberdoodle on 29 August 2010 - 03:08
I agree shock collars can be a useful tool for certain dogs and in certain applications. A lot of trainers say the best time to use an e-collar is when you don't need it, if that makes any sense. Meaninng the dog is so well trained, the collar is rarely used, but there if you do need it. It's useful for distance recalls and for recalling aggressive dogs who have a high drive to go for something else, among other things.
That said, what do you think of this application of the collar, also used by the same company, and used to subdue an aggressive dog into giving up, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHAQkT4C9VA My fear is that YouTubers out there will try this at home. IMO it is dangerous for the public to see this application of an e-collar, and I feel it is unethical.
by Slamdunc on 29 August 2010 - 03:08
I watched that video and I'm not really sure what to think. There is no doubt that the dog was very aggressive and would have done some serious damage. I think there was a lot that wasn't shown on that video. I was surprised to see the guy take the muzzle off at the end and that was what I was hoping to see. It is not much different than what Cesar Milan does when he hangs a dog until it passes out. Then they show the dog all gassed and seemingly under control. They never really show how harsh the training was. I guess they are going by the "end justifies the means." I am curious to see the dog in 6 weeks or 6 months and see how the dog is doing.
This may work in this case. I am not a fan of using pain induced compulsion to stop aggression. In many dogs it simply elevates the aggression. But, we all have a breaking point, I guess they found it.
Jim
by yoshy on 29 August 2010 - 05:08
Also, If you are going to control aggression with an ecollar timing is critical just as any other application. You dont wait till the dog is flying about in an ellevated state of arousal and fry him. You catch it before it happens. this is why i feel you need to cultivate a relationship with the dog so that he isnt in the heightened state of arousal from the get go. especially since this dogs body language suggests fear aggression. then train the dog in a relatively low pressure area until the dog understands what is expected of him. then apply enviromental pressure(in the case humans) at a distance and work in, proofing training. this builds the dogs confidence and the handlers as well as affective management of his behavior. same approach as would be used with any device. I do not agree with flooding! Which is what i see this as.
once again its not the tool used thats the issue- its the person using it!
by Bhaugh on 03 September 2010 - 03:09
Slamdunc,
Thanks for the explanation on your methods for using an ecollar. Some I hadnt thought of and now it makes more sense when I see them on police dogs.
As for Fred Hassen, I use to live in his neighborhood and since I cant think of much to say thats positive about him other than he does market himself very well, I wont say anything else.
I agree with you doberdoodle if a dog cannot be trained (the average companion dog) without the use of an e collar, then I feel the training is flawed. I have used shock collars for long distance work (field work with retrievers) and the beep on the collar is a great alert without having to "hit the button" unless the dog is off track or just not paying attn but for everything else, its the good ol plain jane choke, prong or just leather collar.
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