color question - Page 2

I wrote an article about GSD coat color genetics for SchH USA magazine that almost did not get accepted for perceived lack of interest.  Sheesh.  It seems about every week someone posts a question about color.  LOL  I'm glad I stuck to my guns and got it published.

Yvette

The white gene is actually separate and not a true color in the GSD.
A white GSD is genetically still black, sable, blk/tan or bicolor. The white gene is recessive, so both parents must carry it, and it acts as a masking gene, covering up to true color of the dog.
--Mary

Penciling does not mean that the dog carries the solid black gene.

Maybe those w/dogs who have another color besides black shouldn't call them "solid blacks" but "genetic blacks"??? Solid black is a dog w/no other markings, period...hence the name "solid."

keep your eyes on your "solid black" dogs - the shadings that come with age, will more than likely come - some sooner than others, but show me an older "solid black" dog who is still that.  Make sure you look between the toes!

molly

Molly, in the other thread I asked you how old is old enough in your opinion to say a dog won't change. My 6yr old has no white or bleeding at all- anywhere. Bottoms of feet are black as night. Gums are black. No white on chest, even as a tiny pup. I would think 6 is old enough to say the dog is solid black, and anything that comes later is aging, and not bleeding.

Do you agree?

nope.  bleeding isn't white on the chest (they are or are not born with that) and you won't see it on the bottoms of the feet.  Look BETWEEN the toes.  Bleeding is brown hairs that develop up the backs of the  legs, front and back - some black dogs do this early, some later.  Nothing to do with age-related greying.

molly

No, that's not what I meant. I understand bleeding perfectly. I was asking what age you finally agree a dog is solid black.

I just said mine had no white OR bleeding anywhere. Trust me; I've looked all over that dog in the last 6 years and there is nothing on him but coal black. He doesn't even bleach out in the sun like the others in the summer.

My point w/mentioning aging was that any white appearing on a dog of 7 or older, I would say is probably age-related graying, and typically will be on muzzle, etc. Just threw that in there to clarify what I was talking about.

Don't assume that the person checking the "BLACK" box knew what they were doing.  I've seen Bi colors registered as blacks fairly often.  The AKC doesn't require that the "Breeder" nor the new owner know what the heck they're doing. I've seen black and cream registered as bl/tn  Bl/tn registered as Blk/red etc.. .have even seen whites registered as "Cream" to avoid the stigma that was associated with having a white.  Gawd knows how many blues or livers weren't registered with the color properly listed..

"I wrote an article about GSD coat color genetics for SchH USA magazine that almost did not get accepted for perceived lack of interest."

I see a few things I would have edited just a tad, for clarity and accuracy.  Not intentionally looking for, but spotted an error in "your" chart, far left column. 

My 2-2 Titus bitch was as black as they get, and all of her black offspring with black skin pigment.  I remember Molly saying something to the affect that that's not the norm, but the first black dog I ever owned (among several) that had tan hairs between the toes, was a totally novel experience to me.  Grant it, she's only 5&half years old now, but I really wouldn't expect her to show grays for at least another 5, if ever.  I've since then seen many poor pigmented black dogs, and don't care for their looks.

I love the sables with the melanistic features, but they too, can carry the potential to throw white hairs, even recessively.  This pup's grand-uncle was a black, with a tuft of white on his chest.  This stems from a gene controlled from a different loci on the chromosome than that of your basic coat patterns.  I suspect the same is true of tan hairs between toes, meaning that, if black is homozygous on the agouti locus, that is solid black, despite whatever modifiers from other loci may presently affect the phenotype.

Phenotype may, but genotype doesn't change with age, and that's where some of the confusion around describing color stems from.  Not just in regards to confusion about blacks, but I've seen it time and again crop up in conversations about sables, black & tans, and bicolors too.

When I describe "dark sable", I'm talking about phenotype, that may or may not have a black recessive.
When I describe "black sable", I'm talking about a confirmed genotype with the recessive black (aw+a)
If I mention that my dog in the avatar is a "black sable", I can ony imagine the confusion that would cause ;-)