If the Capt. was alive today - Page 19

Duke1965.... youa are correct about my post. I'm in florida for winter and doing this from my phone with not good service so I keep it short and it don't always come across exactly how I meant it.hardness has nothing to do with being sharp. But maybe we have 2 different interpretations of what sharp is. To me a dog coming to the door barking with great intensity and confidence and saying. (If you openthat door your getting bit) and being very convincing is not being sharp. To me that is defence....so actually yes defense and hardness are 2 different things but also one is not much good without the other. The hard dog threads are always startes by a newbie who usually don't know Much but I understand why they pop up often as many and newbies probably feel awfully cheated when they find out their 15000 puppy won't protect "ANYTHING"IN REAL LIFE unless someone is wearing a sleeve and cracking a whip..... of course walking in the house with a suit on and putting pressure on many of the sl dogs I see with good defence is the only way tosee if he is going to crumble or not but you are definately getting bit regardless. Much more of a deterrent than many wl dogs bouncing around with a ball in its mouth. I'm all for working line myself but I am disgusted to see what is being peddled here in the usa as wl gsd...... I paid 2850euro for a female :) she is all I was looking for for my next sport dog. I like tough bitches. And the statement about the good studs bred to "crappy bitches" is the first place to start to fix the probblem IMO. I bred ALEX VOM EISENHAUS 2X universal sieger schH3 IPO3 FH. I imported her bred and wanted to keep a female pup. The best female pup was a longhair so I didn't keep one. After the litter was gone and I sterted working the mother I did not like her. Very weak in protection. I could have bred this female many more times but chose not to.there are a few of us that are not in it for the money. If I had a $100 for every crappy schh1 female I've seen imprted and bred purely for the $ id be very well off.lol. luckily troll v h milinda was pe-potent enough to give me 5 pups in a litter of 10 that I liked. Too bad my top 2 picks were lonhairs. Until it stops being about the money I thinkthings will stay just as they are. Kurt

its not only the money ,but many people think if they buy a pup from whatever famous male it will be a great pup , as long as that mindset wont change , the bigger picture will not change
its maybe easyer to go with the flow and breed names and sell the pups fast , but were will it bring you or the breed

Duke1965, you are so very wright about the famous studs. I would like to add, with much respect, that "famous" can be created in two ways; fame through advertising and campaigning; fame through word of mouth and reputation. I know you already know that, but I would just like to point out that the general family looking for a pup do what they have been conditioned to do, rely on publicity to make a choice. Therefore, breeders "in it for the money" monopolize on this to sucker customers in. No, it is definitely not good for the breed, and a large majority of people breeding dogs couldn't care less. A personal example: I know a man producing GSDs that boasts on pedigrees of his dogs. One of his males has a very obvious back problem(drags back legs at times)which the guy has not had diagnosed and proudly bragged on new Litter from that dog. I was shocked, he said, "his back isn't too bad, he can still breed". Sells pups like crazy by that dog.

Vomeisenhaus: Much more of a deterrent than many wl dogs bouncing around with a ball in its mouth.

I see a classic mistake being stated above, and that is equating sport-dogs with working dogs.  I personally don't consider dogs bred for high-prey drive and nothing else, primarily for top sport, as WL dogs.  Those are just sport-dogs not working dogs.

A WL dog is FAR more than a prey-monster.  They have solid structures built for work, in addition to a temperament that balances prey-drive and defense drive, along with the mental capability to solve problems, independently of their master.  They have "off" switches that allow them to settle down at home, once "work" is done. 

For instance, WL dogs like say Norbo Ben Ju or Quanto Jipo-Me or Dargo Ha Ja Da or Balli Panta Rei, who are hard, uncompromising and absolutely unstoppable out in the field, and simply will not back down from a threat to his/their master, will settle down and become pussy-cats at home where they gently play around and allow themselves be handled (even mis-handled !) by little children in their master's home.   These are not jumpy, frenetic prey-monsters bred purely for sport, who mistakenly keep being referred to as "working dogs" on these forums.

Aakay.... you are telling me something I already know. We are talking about lines not individual dogs. Or at least I am. What I am talking about is the misleading of people of what they are actually getting. And don't kid yourself. I've seen dogs just a cple of generations awayfrom dogs you mentioned that I wouldn't give 10cents for. Do you see what I'm getting at?

What you just said to me is the winner of the wusv is not a wl dog..... would you say that dusty van tiekerhook is not a wl dog? I really like dusty as I believe he is a dog that can scoe high and also be a very serious dog. This is a classic mistake that is made. Serious dogs can score high in if in the right hands and the right support group. A great example is gary hanrahans bastin vom kokeltal. Very serious dog whohas produced serious dogs and is also winner of usca nationals and bsp. I know first hand of some of his offspring.that are very serious with crushing grips, and awesome power not to mention that dusty van tiekerhhok was 3rd in wusv 2x in a row so that kind of throws a wrench in the gears of the sport dgs are not working dogs aakay.

vomeisenhaus.... I've seen dogs just a cple of generations awayfrom dogs you mentioned that I wouldn't give 10cents for. 

Can you point to some specific examples of  Norbo Ben-Ju or Balli Panta-Rei or Dargo Ha-Ja-Da or Quanto Jipo-Me grand-children (couple of generations away from them) that are as worthless as you state ?  Thanks. 

I have seen quite a few of these grand-children and great-grand-children and none of them disappointed me, to be quite honest.   They all seemed to inherit the balanced prey/defense drives with a civil edge, of their ancestors.....even the "worst" members of the litter, unless subsequent environmental conditions (going into a home where even the best of pups can be destroyed) took them down the wrong path.

Vomeisenhaus:  You keep referring back to sport-dogs that I personally am least interested in.  Their "scores" matter very little to me, as long as they lack the balance of defense and prey and can settle down at home, once work is done, and have the versatility for a wide variety of tasks that the GSD is known for.  If they are not balanced, versatile dogs, IMHO, they should not be bred, regardless of their "scores".
 
As soon as many of these sport-dogs get these high sport titles, they are pretty much worthless for any other work.  Even if they are capable of being worked, they will need to un-learn some of what the sport (or schutzhund) training put them through, and re-learn how to do real work. 

A key difference between the Malinois and the GSD....if you need one-track prey-monsters, who cannot switch gears and engage in multiple tasks, then a Malinois is what you should get and not the FAR more versatile GSD.  One gets a GSD for the supreme intelligence that characterizes the breed, with a brain behind those sharp eagle eyes, that can solve problems, than (like a Mali) go after a target like a prey-monster, that functions like a fire-and-forget missile.


 

I can't specify aakay but trust me they are out there. Most were owned by newbies who bought into the "CZECH LINES ARE BEST" and faded away when they found out there czech pup didn't mature into all it was bragged up to become. What I'm getting at for the most part is any good dogs lines and go sour without good selective breeding practices. Just because something is out of so & so doesn't make it a good dog for breeding. This goes for any working breed whether hunting dogs or working dogs.

So your again telling me dusty van tiekerhook and bastin vom kokeltal could not do anything else but perform on a trial field? You think these dogs are not balancedd? Lmao. Trust me they are not prey monsters aakay. Many sport dogs are but not the ones I've mentioned. The dogs you spoke of could scre well on the sport field if in the right hands aakay......