WGWL - Page 18

BW

the logic is simple. Effect is a product of causation and the more you understand cause the more you can control/produce effect. Your argument about what the trainers are doing is that they are trying to produce some kind of effect ( a trained dog ). If they only IMPLICITLY understand cause there is only so much they can do. EXPLICIT understanding of cause is a preferred approach.

You're right bud...start taking the levels of dopamine to figure out why a dog is reacting in a certain way to a stimuli, make this happen split second and be able to relay this information to the helper so that they can react accordingly based on the chemical levels your read out is giving them. I'm sure you'll have a ton of success training dogs that way, good luck to you. We'll see you at nationals next year?

There is a lot of good information in these posts from everybody to my way of thinking.
This is a pet peeve of mine and I think it fits into this conversation. One of the differences in dogs past and SOME dogs today, is the lack of survival or self preservation traits. I have seen too many dogs of past 15 years, that were so locked in obsession with sleeve,(GS I'm talking about), that when you throw down sleeve and they go after it, you can continually sting them with whip and they will NOT leave the sleeve for the threat or pain. This is UNNATURAL, this is unbalanced, this is something you never saw 25 years ago. And I have seen this more and more frequently. Even with training for the sleeve, the prey drive should not be stronger than self preservation or inflicted pain from a source. This is not all dogs and I'm not saying all, but it's quite frequent these days especially among some lines, and it has its rewards in some venues that promulgates this trait to be increased.
This is faulty behavior and breeding to perpetuate or continue this is wrong for the breed because it is not only unbalanced but it is lessening a vital trait. Yet, so called experts cannot understand the big picture for the smaller picture within their world. There must be balance in the breed and in breeding in the breed and too much of accent of one thing always comes at expense of something else, of course if you don't need what you are losing in your venue you will scarcely miss it.

I should also state I don't mean these dogs won't defend themselves in say a dog fight, but I mean that they are far too driven/obsessed. This comes with a price, just like too much black and red over generations comes with a price. I understand people in these worlds won't acknowledge these deficiencies, but it's real.

Agree Gustav, see those every week in both malis and GSD , locked in prey completely, can kill them and owner and they wont switch, but I see lots of well balanced dogs as well and more and more people and LE vendors want balanced dogs now over the "full calm grip " stuff

Those dogs exist...same with the crazy defensive dogs that can't be controlled (believe two have been listed on this thread). Or the crazy defensive dogs that don't have anything in them and are scared of everything that moves so they bark and snarl with nothing to actually back it up. We can all go on for days listing off the extremes that all of us involved in any facet of the breed have seen.

I'm not sure where you see the sleeve barkers like you do...I travel enough and tend to train with higher level people because of certain connections and also my own aspirations. I've seen one dog that would legitimately bark at a sleeve over a person. Funny enough, the dog is now a working K9 in a police department.

I'd love to get the names of dogs that are heavily used in breeding which are sleeve suckers like it's been described. I've worked or seen a lot of the big names in this country get worked and I can tell you that none of them had any issues barking at the man. One in particular...I couldn't slip the sleeve with him because he'd spit it and come back at me.

Do people not realise that trained dogs display certain behaviours because the owner desires it and has set up training programs to achieve it.

If you invest 1000's of hours and dollars to be good at IPO then you select and train for IPO.

The PPD crowd here are all dog sellers trying to make a buck, the sport crowd have the bucks and just want to train their dog.

 

If we follow all type dogs in sport it is still high prey drives dogs IPO,KNPV,Ringsport ,PSA

Police ,Military need speed and high prey drives with fight , most real life LE situations dog attack wiil be in
prey drive,

Good serious defense helpers are hard too find, in sport LE/Military and real life situations who understand the job,


Also I agree more balance in breeding would be better for control handler vs K9. Control is the most important factor  of all

 

bavarian, I test a lot of dogs each week and mostly can tell by the pedigree what they will be like, I wont give names, not done, but there are some famous dogs from which we see most offspring with crazy prey but no heart, no defence, no agression,
must add there that I dont see all offspring of these dogs, but in general we see a lot of good dogs from certain males and a lot of not so good from others

I got 9 new dogs in this week and tested another 15 I didnot buy, so I think I see a good number of dogs per week/month/year to have an Idea

here are some new ones I taped today and yesterday

https://youtu.be/vf31aD36M34

https://youtu.be/vpC0SFB35ic

https://youtu.be/6mD-w9eWq3U

https://youtu.be/BxnNMy7cJxU

https://youtu.be/hoYo61yW2GY

https://youtu.be/wZEUm6oEzKw


enjoy

and VK we dont need to try to make a buck, the demand in LE dogs is a little bit bigger than sportdogs

BW, I never mentioned any specific venue, just the type of dogs I have seen worked. I don't know what the higher circles of dog training means, I could name names of who and where I have seen these dogs, but the issue is whether or not these type of dogs are increasing purposely or are exceptions. As a person who is knowledgeable about pedigrees, it is important to me to know what the strength and weaknesses of certain lines/dogs....that's why I make sure to acknowledge that nothing is absolute. But real breed people should be concerned with trends and directions of the breed and not be defensive but open eyed. Maybe this is an exception in your world, but obviously other credible people like Duke have seen it also. Furthermore, I'm more concerned with breeding direction than the individual dog in the hands of world level handlers....I guess that is where we see things differently. But trust me, I see the same quality dogs you see, we just have different perspectives. It's all good!🙂