Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 18

Mac, aggression, the will to engage a violent subject, defense, civil drive, is there from birth. You dont train a properly bred dog to have it or bite, you allow it to.

If what you are saying about the show dog is true so far as "aggression" and its lack of, than its not a GSD, something I have said for ever in here. Again, temperament is genetic, something its there and can be shaped and given expression or its not and cannot magicaly appear.

One more thing Mac, in your post, you mentioned the "show" dog and the so called "working" dog and how their tasks are not the same, however, since the GSD was created to be an actual working dog, what you are saying is that the show dog is not a GSD, yes? 

If you are asking if the HGH dogs I posted here are worthy of being called German Shepherds, I believe they are. If I were their breeder/s I'd feel as if I were doing the right thing to try to breed the dog that Stephanitz envisioned. 

Another Mexican standoff - working vs show. It always turns out the same. 

Very good Blitzen, I am glad you like those dogs and as soon as I am able to get a herd of sheep, I will see about getting one, in the mean time, I am more interested in jobs that the breed can accomplish today, in the modern world.

So far as the "Mexican" stand off, I was born and raised in Europe so I do not qualify for it. Oh, when I say "working", I mean actual work, as in going to work daily with a handler, be it a guide dog, a herding dog, a police dog or a detection dog, neither sport nor show dogs qualify for how I see an actual working animal.

Hired dog - when I said " For these dogs they only have to show in the bite work that they are willing to attack, take a full bite and stay in while taking moderate punishment and come out on command. That will be enough to pass."  If the show dogs can demonstrate that they have those qualities then it can be at the lowest level or equal to any working dog.  What counts is that they have it.  As long as they have them the dog can be continue to higher levels if that is what is wanted but not compulsory.

I hope that this makes it a little clearer for you.

Mackenzie

When we talk about breeding then we have to think of the females as well.  To qualify to breed the minimum schutzhund or IPO is category 1.  What I would like to see but will probably never happen is for this qualification apply to the first litter and then any for any subsequent litters the qualification must be raised to level 2 or higher.

Mackenzie

Mac, you have been in this breed for a long time and you claim to have trained many dogs, so, you must surely know that you can train a little jack russel to perform the very minimal test you mentioned, especially on your home field with the same helper who is a good friend of the dog and the dog looks at this as nothing more than a little game of tug, yes?

I am also certain you have heard of "midnight" trials to put a sport title on those show dogs? Someone here was kind enough to post a video of show dogs in a thread recently, it might have your other thread, running away from the helper, refusing to engage, chewing the sleeve and generally acting not very GSD like. Like I said earlier, certain groups like what they like and thats all they care about, sport or show.

Finally, please do not insult actual working dogs by comparing them to show or sport dogs. I hope all this makes it a little more clear for you as well. Take care!

I was out few days , still my post stands by what standarts, if you would call a passing score on IPO 1 enough for calling it a quality dog

agree with hired dog

a workingline dog who passes with passing scores got sold for family dog in europe

a showline dog with passing scores is celebrated and bred till she dies

the helper work of workingline helpers and showline helpers is very different also,

again, I have no problem with showline dogs and people but it is two different worlds and saying that same percentage of workingline and showline will work well is way besides reality

Hired dog - I would never insult a true working dog or denigrate the efforts to achieve the standards needed to get there.   If you care to go back a few generations you will see that many working dogs have show dogs behind them.

As for the first paragraph of your last post it is fair to say that many dogs of different breeds can be trained to some level but we do not call them GSD's or expect all of them to reach the levels of the GSD.

Mackenzie