If the Capt. was alive today - Page 18

Preston,

God bless you, you are Knowledge + Experience + Wisdom, we need both the good in Show and the good in Work, the magic word is compromise, and for breeding strategy/goals/philosophy go back to Gustav's earlier post and you've got a solution for our beloved ONE versatile balanced GSD.

Ibrahim

the SL have been intensely linebreeding on Canto and Quanto since 1970 to 75......Do the math on how long and saturated this is.

holly crap, I didn't realize it went that far back.

Cassandra, that is a stunning dog!!

Another thing that Johan, Cphudson touch upon....in order to get good balance back in the breed we have to get balance in structure. Somebody wrote form follows function....that's correct....but many of the dogs today that people consider to be anatomically correct are not conducive to superior working. (And this is not just aimed at SL, I find some of the DDR lines much to heavy and thick to have the ultimate balance we should promote). Of course removing things like the 6 foot straight wall, has allowed some of this to be covered up. We need Judges that have the knowledge and integrity to put up dogs that project as lithe and agile as well as pretty and bigheads. You will still have stockier types but they must still project speed and power within this type, and not a big lumbering dog.

Joanro:

Thank you for the compliment.  LE K9 Khizer brings his dad home safely every night. 

Cassandra

This is a great thread.... many good points being made. The all mighty dollar is the motive today. I really liked what cphudson had to say as I believe he really hit the nail on the head. There is a reason we see a lot of (HARD DOG) threads as people are tired of paying $1,5000. Plus shipping for a puppy oly to find out 2yrs later that the dog would have to be backed in a corner and beat to protect itself much less protect its owner & fami. Or just run betewwn intruders legs as he opens the door to get outside and hope somebody throws a ball for him. The wl's are in more trouble than people think but thankfullythere aree still some breeders breeding true to form. I've seen many sl dogs that will protect home & property better than many of the wl's and that's a fact. I thiink the capt.would crawl back in his coffin & go back to work his beloved dogs of his time as he migt not have $2,850.00 euro for a tiekerhook....lol. kurt

well, i've already decided that the next dog/pup i get will have herding ability.  the old time dogs had this ability in aces and along with that came a willingness to please, sensitivity to handlers instruction, problem solving skills, intelligence in general, health & hardiness, protective tendancies & a fair amount of natural obedience.  i've grown disgusted with the emphasis on prey drive in WL and disgusted with the deformed conformation of the SL.  the herding dogs appear, to me, to retain the most traits of the original working dog.  then i will have come full circle.
pjp

vomeisenhaus you touch a good point there , today sharpness is almost easyer found in showlines than in workingline , unfortunately often not backed up by courage , but sometimes it is
dont really think that the abilty of guarding and protecting has much to do with hardness but more with the overall level and balance of drives  in a dog , and since most wl dogs are bred today for the sole purpose of scoring points , we are in the situation we are in now , most dogs have more desire for the ball than for the man , and for points thats fine but for breeding a versatile breed it is not .

the problem is the puppybuyers ,as a breeder can only breed what he can sell , and demand for good dogs is low , demand for offspring of famous stud with watever crappy bitch is high

meaning that most puppybuyers only look at the name of the father or grandfather of the pups or the name of the kennel to make their choice  of where to buy their next pup

 many people are dissapointed afterwards but keep their beloved lemon and are out of the game for another ten years

There are some wonderful points here.  CPHudson.. just one Leeetle correction... the second line of photos is not Springer Spaniels but English Setters.  I heard a story from a person who shows in breed that her dog was in the final class for Best in Show (AKC) and a bird came out of the rafters and was walking around in the ring next to theirs (a pigeon).  Her dog (Schnauzer) saw the bird and started to vibrate he wanted to get it.  The AKC Ch. English setter ahead of her (a BIB to make it to the final ring for BIS) actually spooked at the bird.  THAT is sad!!!  So.. more than a change in looks has occurred in that breed as well as in our GSD!

Other posts are target on.  I will have to say that the issue with working lines today is balanced drives.  Fight/Combat, Prey, Defense and Rank drives MUST be in balance in an already confident dog. 

I have said it before and I will say it again, MOST dogs out there should not be bred.  You can buy a puppy and intend to breed but you need to step away from that dog and cast a critical eye over him or her before you breed!  I know.. I have and the dog I thought I would breed I will not be breeding.  Does not mean I love her less.

And it does not hurt to do the same thing with your lines if you own a kennel. 

Be honest first with yourself and your dogs.. and if you are truly critical.. you can do nothing except improve both or even decide what you have and have been doing is not working (really hard if you have been at if for years).  Real heart break in this business if we are really honest.  

In the current economy here in the US we do not need to put puppies on the ground just because we can or because we want to. 

This has been an excellent discussion, that has pointed out deficits in both SL and WL. It has brought out some of the more balanced knowledgable people to weigh in on things, so that many of the newer people can learn. It was not siderailed by people from either side of the aisle who can't accept the criticism of today's current dogs; and more importantly dialogue on things to breed for to try to correct them.
Its been a while since we have had a good thread with good intelligent, non emotional input.....BRAVO!!