Panda Shepherd(what do you think?) - Page 18

I think you're onto something with the Canaan dog cross.
If not a cross, it may be a spontaneously occurring mutation. Mutations breed true.. no need for a recessive gene in the partner. So, I guess it would be a dominant gene, then.

I think you're onto something with the Canaan dog cross.
If not a cross, it may be a spontaneously occurring mutation. Mutations breed true.. no need for a recessive gene in the partner. So, I guess it would be a dominant gene, then.

The entire point is that they are not to standard.  Period.  So yes, start a new breed if you like, and of course they can crop up in pure GSD litters and can be pure GSD (I'm sure some people tout mixes as panda GSD, but of course there are pure GSD pandas).  The point is, as even supporters on here say, they are "mutants" and "freaks" - their words, not mine (and freak means unusual, not bad).

So if you want to breed German Shepherd Dogs, breed to standard.  Period.  It doesn't matter at all if I "love the look."   Whether I love it or not does not matter.  It's what's correct.  IT'S NOT THE STANDARD FOR THIS BREED.

No need to euthanize a panda pup, although I understand if people do.  The person who put a limited registration on their panda did the right thing - why not raise a happy, healthy dog, but since it's totally non-standard and a mutant, IOW, a throwback to early foundation dogs probably, don't breed it.

It amazes me that people say, but it's the color of the early progenitors of the breed!  Yeah, so what?  Do we want German Shepherds to look like those early European sheepdogs?  No.

Charlie I think you are right, but I just get a little sick and tired of people who breed color for colors sake.  We see this so much with people advertising their "rare" livers and blues.  When we look at the overwhelming majority of "rare color"  breeders stock, it starts to become obvious the breeding stock was chosen soley for the ability to pass on "rare" color.  With this Panda person, at least she is temperment testing, OFAing, & showing her dogs in a conformation ring.  Of course for me, I love working lines, and would have nothing but working lines. 

Have there been any panda color to panda color breedings?  If so, what do they produce? 

I'm glad this thread came up, because I have always wondered about the ancient origins of the GSD and I now think it could well be involving the Canaan dog. I know with reasonable certainty that there is some wolf blood in there, too. The Romans may have brought the ancestors from the Middle East into Europe. The Canaan dog is known to be a very ancient breed, so.. not a far stretch of the imagination.

Just a side note, but I remember many years ago that the AKC was actually trying to promote interest in blue and liver GSDs, hoping people would start to specialize in their breeding as a color variety. They used to have these and also white as check offs on the blue slips. Show awards are up to the judges, but AKC will register anything, even if the color is "verboten" by the standard.

All the talk we make about it is wasted breath.. Everyone has an opinion, nobody ever agrees, and they don't really care..

"They used to have these and also white as check offs on the blue slips. Show awards are up to the judges, but AKC will register anything, even if the color is "verboten" by the standard."

Well, they have to.  A color fault is like any other fault - a FAULT, even if (as in the case of white dogs, a disqualifying fault for conformation show purposes).  Like a bad shoulder assembly or a snipy muzzle, it doesn't invalidate the fact that the parents are both registered dogs who have produced purebred offspring.

A bit of history about the Canaan Dog:
The Canaan Dog is a breed native to Israel, dating as far back as 2,000 BC. The ancient Israelites used these dogs to herd flocks and guard camps up until the Roman invasion in the second century. At that time, the Israelites were scattered and many of the dogs found refuge in the Negrev Desert, most living feral and undomesticated, although some lived with the Bedouin tribes of the area.

The GSD probably came from a cross at some point of the Canaan dog and probably a few other canine breeds as well.  All dogs are mutts - We have created 'standards' but like a previous postee stated - the standards matter to me when it comes to performance, personality, build and temperment. 

My panda does not have the build of a border Collie - first off - he is much bigger, ears stiffer, more confident, and meets all the GSD standards - and none of the border collie stardards.  Besides the american sloping hips (which i belive are terrible for the dog anyway) he meets all the following AKC standards - everything from Gait, to size, build, temperment, General appearance, hind quarters and forequarters.  White is a disqualification - but again - those laws date back to the nazi regime...I don't want to follow those laws....do you???

White coats were made a disqualification in the German Shepherd Dog Club of Germany breed standard in 1933 after the breed club came under the control of the German Nazi party that took over all aspects of German society.

Every single dog owner I have met - and all the GSD meets I have been to have judged Pandas until they actually met one.  Everytime a GSD stands theirs by ours - they are pleasantly suprised of how amazing these dogs are and how they meet all the standards.  We actually did a side by side comparison of a police K-9 with a friend and besides the color difference and his straight back they were both GSD - no question.

I will post a few pics for you guys to see our little man through his growth and please agree along with others that pandas (despite a color difference ) are pure shepherds



 

Yelpasso: Many of us (probably most of us) who frequent this site pay more attention  to the SV standard, and have European Lines, not the AKC GSDCA standard, and Am Lines,  mainly because of the AKC GSDCAs complete  lack of any performance testing requirements, and it's diversion from the SV standard, which has ended up perverting the Am Lines to the point where they don't much resemble their European counterparts anymore.  You say you are more interested in performance and temperment than color.  I am unaware of any stringent and specific performance testing requirements for  Panda breeders, but I think this would definetely be an important step in the right direction  for North American Panda Shepherds. Can you advise what testing your your dogs sire and dam have undergone to determine their breed worthiness?    What is the pedigree of your dog?

Have there been any panda color to panda color breedings? If so, what do they produce?

I've had some correspondence with the researchers working on this.  There have been numerous panda x panda breedings, but so far, DNA analysis has revealed no panda mutation homozygotes (double panda).  This breeding would normally produce ~25%, so the assumption is that the panda mutation is lethal in double dose.  I believe the ratio of colours in the litters is normal for the remaining colours ie. 67% panda markings (heterozygotes) 33% normal GSD colour.

The up shot of this is that panda can never breed true as all panda coloured dogs carry the recessive wild-type non mutation.

Just a mention of the odd occurrence of white markings in the breed that are not directly descended from original pandas.  It's quite normal for white markings to crop up sporadically in any breed and the chances of these being another mutation identical to panda is remote.  More likely due to rare recessives carried in the gene pool or just a blip in pigment cell migration.  The difference with panda is that it segregates as a dominant and has now been DNA identified.

Sue:

While I don't support breeding Panda's or any other fancy coloration intentionally, any more than I'd support breeding only for color, she is not doing  anything that we don't se today in working lines breeders who are suddenly pushing our big-blocky headed and black sables...  pod's comment on the panda mutation should be enough to convince anyone that the Panda is truly a GSD that has a very particular and statistically unusual pigmentation scheme.

As to the origins of the GSD and the Canaan dog, I imagine someone with plenty of money and time could do a mitochondrial DNA research and unravel the path that the GSD has taken.