WGWL - Page 17

So BW being a " clever person" makes him correct under all circumstances and exempt from deference to his/her ideas? So Yogi or anyone else for that matter, explain in a reasonable manner why the idea I floated MUST be false or incorrect.

My idea is that:  while it is an evolutionary advantage for self preservation ( defense ) drive to also be the domain of flight response, it does not have to true under all an every circumstance. There could be a subset of dogs whose high defense drive can cause them to continue to act aggressively ( without flight ) even when it is not in their self preserving interest to do so.The continuation of such behavior in that subset of dogs is most probably modulated by something biochemcial involving known neurotransmitters such as dopamine and adrenaline. A few persons on here have chimed in with anecdotal knowledge of such dogs they have seen/worked with, etc. I also reported my observation with my own dog who will chase a ball for as much times that  I  can throw ( an even when shes is clearly metabolizing pyruvates and producing lactates). Clearly chasing a ball in such a condition goes against the rules of self preservation. I also referred to an addiction model developed at Columbia University where lab mice would self administer cocaine  until death ( self preservation completely bypased in such behavior ). Now Mr Yogi  show how my ideas are illogical.  And lastly, not because someone has worked with dogs for years and can compile some details mean that such person can  metacognicize a meaningful model from such details.

 

probably modulated by something biochemcial involving known neurotransmitters such as dopamine and adrenaline ....."

 

Blah blah blah.

This is random words looking for a meaning. Mithuna you embarrass yourself when you try to sound smart.

 

You need to stop "metacognizing" in  yr basement.

Mithuna, so the dog you're recommending to your pal Shawni is a sport dog?

Mith I don't need to put my interpretation on any of the themes in this thred, Gustav & Yogi do it too well.

Tiekerhook is a sporty, sport kennel if ever there was one.

Mithuna...I'm still waiting on where I posted anything negative about "defensive" dogs...please provide. The basic principle here is that you're WAY over complicating dog training and getting into theories that don't matter at all when it comes to a dog performing work. Simply what it needs to boil down to is...did the dog do it and how did it do it? That's all that matters. At this point you're just ignoring the fact that you've been caught stating a lie to try to make yourself look smarter or more knowledgeable. Next time you try to discredit someone, please make sure you have the facts.

BW: "Simply what it needs to boil down to is...did the dog do it and how did it do it".

Sorry but I don't agree with this. The actual basic principle is that if you understand CAUSATION you can control EFFECT/OUTCOME.
A few years ago I spoke to Mike Suttle who was explaining about MWD with extremely high prey drive jumping out of 10th floor behind a ball. In fact he claims to have such a dog ( Malinois ) at his kennel , who is TOO RECKLESS to work ( he can injure himself and others ). As I understand it, such drive can be so high that the dog does not recognize self preservation. There must be some kind of intrinsic reward sustaining such drive, and the most likely candidate is something biochemical.
Ill reread the posts later and source the information that Im referring to.

BW: "The basic principle here is that you're WAY over complicating dog training and getting into theories that don't matter at all when it comes to a dog performing work." 

Im not saying you, blue collar thinkers don't like to go deeper into things.

 

You're right...the chemicals are why dogs are trained. Has nothing to do with the trainer/handler or helper. It's all about the chemicals and how high their ball drive is or how defensive they are. Doesn't matter what the helper does in protection and how they bring out and teach the dog the exercises they want. Doesn't matter for the helper to understand how to work with the drive the dog is presenting and use it to get the picture that is wanted. All that matters is a dog will jump off a building for a ball and whatever name you decide to throw out there that you've talked to on the phone at some point.

BTW...spent last weekend training with the best training helper in the United States, also the person most would consider the most successful breeder in the world over the past decade, oh and 2 world team dogs from the United States were there along with their handlers. Should I be dropping their names because it makes some difference as to how good I am as a trainer?

At BW I would like to respond to your post on page 10. Yes I agree it is all trained behavior. But if the sport does not promote natural protectiveness ( defense drive) breeders for sport will not breed for it and we are going to lose this valuable trait. As far as your "reason" or "not reason" to be protective. I am referring top the sentence :" A dog really shouldn’t be reacting without reason. " The point is what is the "reason". Every dog owner has different reason for his dog to protect. In my definition it is dog needs to protect on command or when situation requires it. IMO dog should be trainable to protect in any specific situation decided by his handler and at the same time a good dog should be able to discriminate when to and when not to protect without handler's command. The discrimination is based on experiences and training and it is also determined by defense drive thresholds, territoriality and self preservation instincts like fight or flight. There are also social issues of the pack involved but that is beyond what I am talking about. My point once again is that all this what I have mentioned above is ignored and even frowned by sport and organizations which officially regulate such sports. To me that is a huge problem because it degenerates dog's ability to protect - the ability which joint the man and the dog in the first place and continued to do so for thousand of years.

Koots saidpage 11. : Shawni - don't you think that the dog you were offered, if placed with a handler that chose to work WITH the dog, rather than try to dominate such a dog, would be more easy to train/work with? I think that some trainers/handlers try to dominate certain dogs that will not accept that kind of training, and when such an approach doesn't work they wash the dog. My friend's dog Ero was such a dog, he only accepted one alpha in his life (the original handler in Holland), and if you tried to dominate that dog the fight was on. My friend worked with the dog by coersion rather than domination, and they came to an understanding and acceptance of each other. That was the only way that Ero could be handled safely by anyone other than the original handler, especially before a bond was established between dog/handler.

Hans: That is true with many dogs and I tend to agree. But there are other which are not so and need to be treated with kids glove since their aggression threshold is almost 0 . There can be little done with such dogs. They could be handled and even titled but it is a dangerous proposition. They are what is called gangster dogs. These dogs may have strong nerves and can be used in breeding as Shawn said. However such dogs must be more then low aggression threshold dog. To the mind comes use of dog Gero z Blatenskeho zamku or Female Brita z Ajkinej nadeje to harden the lines. When you use such dog in breeding you will not get all litter of 8 who are gangsters. You will get some harness improvement and in my experience you will get about 10 % gangsters. This type of breeding is not done for immediate results but it is done with planning often with positive results 5 generations ahead.