If the Capt. was alive today - Page 17

Joanro:

I totally agree.  I have had several showline breeders and owners come to me requesting to buy my WL pups.  Their intent was to eventually breed one of my guys to their dogs.  I've tried to explain that I could not in good faith sell them one of my dogs if that was the purpose of their purchase.  I tried to explain it was like breeding apples to oranges.  They could not see it.  I ldeclined the sales but if confronted today with the same request, my decision would still be the same.

Interestingly enough, I had a fireman/LE officer on the same SAR team as myself.  He started out with a SL GSD.  No matter how hard I tried to teach his dog, I could not get this dog to think independently of it's owner.  When you are out in the field, especially on an Area Search, one needs a dog to work ahead of it's owner.  This particular dog would only work  slightly ahead of it's owner and would always look back for the owner's direction and guidance.  In fact, this dog had the same difficulty in tracking.  If it lost the scent, it would literally lay down on the track.  Needless to say this GSD, despite it's lovely disposition, did not genetically have what it took to work.  This same handler ended up purchasing one of my WL pups, who has since become an LE K9 (see picture below).  The handler was amazed at the difference between the 2 bloodlines - not just in physical characteristics.  But in drive!

Cassandra

                             

What happens when breeds go into 2 different directions:

I English Springer Spaniel from originals painting to hunting & show lines:
 
 

English Springer Spaniels from originals hunting & show lines


English Pointe from originals painting to work & show lines:



Neopolitian Mastiff from originals to work & show lines (yes the Neo had working lines)




Look at all of the above breeds their show lines can no longer work / hunt like they use. Their working / hunting lines still look like their originals, plus I'm sure their still have the drives & temperament more so to the originals breed too. Most people would not know they were even the same breed of dog.


GSD Showlines in first 2 pic's then working lines in last 2 pic's:

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There are many many well structured appealing working line dogs. So many working lines are getting V-rates now every year, without having to mix with showlines. Working line breeders have a vast amount of dogs to choose from now that are V-rated. Yes there are some working lines where the temperaments have become too prey driven but this will be easy to fix in a couple generations by breeding back to more balance dogs. I don't think it is fair to say no one uses the WL GSD's for blind anymore when Fidelco Guide Dogs ONLY uses GSD's. They started with herding lines but now add in current WL's to their breeding stock. Their dogs that do not make it as seeing eye dogs go on to become police / SAR dogs.
We other the working dog donation program to agencies that can not afford a well bred started dog. In the last 2 years we have donated 8 dogs to become certified service dogs for autistic children / disabled. Of course police / SAR dogs also. We even have dogs that are used by hunters to find & retrieve water fowl. But all these dogs do come from high drive WL schutzhund back ground. If you aim to breed balance dogs with healthy working structure the GSD can still be 2nd best in everything. 
I have seen some very nice SL's in my club more recently, but sadly that is not the norm most WL people get to see.

The more V rates are sought after, it seems to me, the more the dogs will be bred to resemble SLs so that "judges" will award them. Already one can see the drift in that direction, so there will be sable SLs accompanying the blk/red ones. Not good.

I said it before and will say it again , you talk about split in two directions , I would say it is worst already , we will have showdogs , sport/point dogs and versatile german shephers , as promoted by captain Max

The thing is showlines has nothing to offer in structure for a workingdog, who decided long curved backs and much angulation is better for a workingdog compared to the more straightbacked and less angulated dogs that still is available, and also was the prefered type untill the late 60s or so. This is just personal taste and not what the captain wanted. I find it more alarming if this showtype is something even workingbreeders aim for, if the good old GSD structure is not what the standard calls for anymore to get a V-rating, then let´s ignore the standard and breed dogs that are functional even if it not a "perfect" example of todays judgemnet of the standard.

But there are also plenty of litters born that could do more than sport if that´s the purpose. But as I said before, neither SV or RSV have breedingrequirements that is supposed to select a perfect PSD, if that´s the goal the breeder himself must know what to look for. To make breedingrequirements very strict is also probably not a solution, because how many dogs are left to breed if we only accept fully certified PSDs or highly titled dogs as suited for breedings? But of course some minimumstandard is good, both for health and mentality, a serious breeder select dogs for their character anyway, and not if it has passed certain titles.

Form should follow function. Most WL GSD's today still look like the original given up until the 60's.

It seems there is rumors spreading about that given can't work as police / seeing eye / family pets any more in WL's.
While this may be true with a few, BUT over & over again this is being proved wrong. The biggest importer of police dogs
for military / police normally always have more qualified GSD than Mal's. Majority of Mal's placed have the greater return
rate than any GSD. Yes the quality of GSD's for police & Military aren't as good as before because in most countries the
schutzhund drop outs are the ones sold for police. They are normally purchased then quickly resold for the highest profit with
little to no training. The training is normally rushed if given. The breeders want to keep the best sport / breed dogs because they will generate the most & in the end or sold as started dogs. People buying police dogs want to buy as cheap as they can to increase their profit.
GSD's that are well bred & bred for the main purposes for police / military / SAR have a much higher success rate & happier clients than from above method even if from same lines.
Fidelco's newest stud is a SCH3 IPO3 WL dog from a long line of top sport dogs. This dog's offspring are doing seeing eye work, police, service, & SAR. The main reason why more service agencies don't use GSD's is because the breed does not transfer as well as Lab's or Goldens. Seeing eye / service dogs most transfer ownership 3-4 times before being placed with their owner. 1st with the breeding facility / caretaker, then with a puppy raiser, then back to the facility with assigned trainer, etc..
Another reason is many donation to these agencies have been ASL or GSL's that lack nerve or the type of independent thinking required in a working dog. Once again most donations are the rejects that could not be sold to working / show homes. You can't compare these dogs to the average well bred GSD.

I see WL GSD's doing; SAR, all typs of service work, police, military, bed bug detection, therapy, hunting dogs, farm dogs, herding / flock guarding, etc..
Those dogs are normally quietly doing their jobs with their owners / handlers & not broadcast through out the world wide web as the top sport dogs are today. Once again all those dogs doing those task are still from WL performances lines dogs. The media has filled the public with the imagine of SL's in movies, commericals, TV dog shows that even most of the general public has the SL GSD as the imagine of the breed. The public generally refers to WL's as straight back or police dogs. This imagine is giving way that the GSD working traits are gone except for a few police dogs seen.

WL breeders do need to bred more balance dogs than prey monsters, but this can be done in a couple of generations. Same is true with structure returning more to the true standard of the breed can be done within a 2-3 generations. Then the WL GSD's will be right back on track to the orginal ideal GSD. But about the SL's that need many more generations to add back nerve, temperament, drives, health & correct structure for the breed? If we merge the WL's with SL's wouldn't that set back the breed as a whole for longer recovery back to the ideal we all want?  

"The more V rates are sought after, it seems to me, the more the dogs will be bred to resemble SLs so that "judges" will award them. Already one can see the drift in that direction, so there will be sable SLs accompanying the blk/red ones. Not good."

"The thing is showlines has nothing to offer in structure for a workingdog, who decided long curved backs and much angulation is better for a workingdog compared to the more straightbacked and less angulated dogs that still is available, and also was the prefered type untill the late 60s or so. This is just personal taste and not what the captain wanted. I find it more alarming if this showtype is something even workingbreeders aim for, if the good old GSD structure is not what the standard calls for anymore to get a V-rating, "

I couldn't agree more with both of these statements, which is why I do not care one iota about the coveted V or VA rating.

Cphudson, I agree with you. The breeder producing dogs that are used for farm work, family dogs that give that family a sense of security, not because it will kill an intruder or potential kidnapper, but because it gives warning to the family and is deterrent, Those dogs never get noticed publicly and their usefulness is not recorded on pedigree. But they are doing what the breed is famous for. There are no titles for a dog that is dutiful and performs as a GSD was intended unless artificial training is done which can diminish the natural thinking ability of the individual. I'm not saying training is not necessary but training for titles can be counterproductive. There are countless jobs WLs fulfill that go unrecorded, and aiming for conformation ratings do not contribute to the usefulness of the breed in the real world.

CRHudson's post is very compelling and I must agree with the excellent points made as shown in the attached photos.

There is nothing wrong with the FCI/SV GSD standard, and Capt. von Stephanitz would have approved of it.  Heck, he made many changes in the direction of the physical traits now displayed and wanted balanced movement, like a well oiled machine to provide great endurance in working at a trot, not running.

Like it or not many WL Gsds are way off the mark of the standard and butt ugly, unable to move in a coordinated balanced way at trot.  And many SL GSDs are impressively beautiful close up (some are distorted and gross too physically but have good heads and B & R color) but are unable to move correctly either and have serious deficiencies of temperament and health issues due to too much relatively close linebreeding. There are exceptions, some WL GSDs have it all and produce superb and consistent quality and yes, they approach the standard.  True also for some SL GSDs too which actually have correct temperament and health (these dogs are rare for both catagories).  I do not want to own a too long butt ugly WL GSD that cannot trot and is way off the standard.  I also do not want to own a SL GSD that is eaither close to the physical part of the standard and off on the temperament/working ability part.

Here is the difficult reality.  If you want a WL GSD relatively close to the standard in all ways, you will have to be willing to make compromises.  This means you may give up the prey monster drive for good and proper prey drive, you may have less correct WL puppies from litters bred for this golden middle than you would like until type is stabilized.  And the SL folks will have to make some compromises too from their ideal, such as selcting a properly built and proportion GSD with a short back, less static angulations but more dynamic angulations trotting, less bulk, more dry bone.  Both factions WL and SL tend to be severely kennel blind and do not translate the actual standard into a model to which they compare their own or preferred GSDs to. So we end up with severe roach backs, long weak and/or saggy backs, steep croups, poor temperament, poor health in both WL and SL.  Kennel blindness is a major cognitive distortion and is difficult to correct.  I suggest folks buy a lot of vellum transparent (tracing) paper and trace the recent correct dogs (not from the 1940s, 50's or before), but in the 1960s, 70's and early to mid 80s when the WL and SL GSDS came from the same litters in many cases. Start with Lasso di val Sole or his brother Lex and trace them.  You can't go wrong.  Or look at some of the top Czech studs who are very correct to the standard and can produce. Also some from the old east german studs are superb too. 

Follow the FCI/SV standard, it is very good and each part exists for a reason.  The Captain would be very proud of it and also would approve of the SV in general and all the great hard work those that run the SV office do.  He would find fault with the GSD owners, buyers, breeders, trainers and judges that have sacrificed the standard at the alter of "winning no matter what" and allowing their perceptions to become distorted by winning, status and money.  There is nothing wrong with the SV or the FCI/SV GSD standard, the problem lies in the deficiencies in the hearts and minds of those GSD enthusiasts that ignore it, are ignorant of it, or are misinformed about it or don't understand it (which unfortunately is the vast majority these days).  To be correct, a GSD must look like what the standard specifies, act likle what the standard specifies, be built like the standard specifies, and move ie TROT like the standard specifies. This is what comprises a good GSD either WL or SL.

 

This was a very good example of the breed according to the captain, utz v haus schutting. If dogs that looks close to this dog today are wrong according to the standard it´s just show dogshows and personal interpretsions of the standard serves no purpose. The famous B-litter lierberg also looked close to this, and they were active in the late 60s. There are plenty of working GSDs resemble this type, and also have the mental qualities the standard talks about. Surely there are much easier to find this type of dog among workinglines compared to showlines that both in structure and mentality are far removed from dogs like utz and bodo v lierberg???