Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 16

Show line bred with working line cross that produced 4 puppies two male and two female .. the female Anna went to Florida I believe as a service dog .. she was the best and most athletic dog of the 4 puppies and could have done police work except most cops want a dog with a Johnson.  Axel was a dual purpose police K9 in Carrboro and Cary NC until he retired at around 9 years old.   His brother Andi was bigger and badder than Axel but he was a personal guard dog and a farm dog.  Aliese was my house dog and bark at the door dog until she died.  The sire was a well known dog but Ulla was the foundation for the puppies success.  Ulla was not afraid of anything with legs but she was also a member of the family and had a really good heart and watched over the children growing up.  When I bred Ulla for her one and only litter I was told by several IPO gurus that you shouldn't breed working lines with show lines.  Ulla was a large female and even at 5 years old and fat she could clear a 4 foot fence without touching it.  The point is that those arrogant enough to think that their so called "working dogs" are superior are just repeating the lies that someone else told them.  I've had both show and working plus mixtures of the two .. neither is superior for all jobs a GSD can do and there are certainly good and bad in both human made GSD camps.  The dogs don't seem to discriminate.

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=380822-axel-vom-valkyrieheim

Ibrahim

Eiko's work is average.  He shows some insecurity when pressured on the sleeve and lacks the fight / intensity / dominance you should look for in a stud.  All in all to my eye he is an average dog, if he was female I would say breed away.  As a male you can do much better then that.

As to structure I personally like a more substantial dog but thats far down on my list of whats important.

For todays SLs he would be pretty darn good.

I agree with you Haz.  Eiko's wok was average especially when compared to some of today's dogs.  Like many dogs at that time they were not very good when called off and they just nagged at the sleeve.

Eiko was not a big dog but he was good for keeping size down.  I was at the Sieger show in 1989 when  Eiko was placed first but during the class he flagged badly. Eiko finally finished third behind Iso v Bergmannshof and Fanto v Hirschel both of these were grossly oversize.  Eiko was correct in size but he looked very small against the first two.   The female line behind him on the mother side has many HGH animals which were worked regularly.  The bite work in the HGH test is performed with the dog on the lead.

Mackenzie

If we radomly sample for working ability from an open population ( WL and SL ) of GSDs, it seems as though  statistics would favor the WL dog.This aforementioned is reinforced when we see the powerful protection phases of dogs likes Max Van Tiekerhook, Francesco Anrebri, Tom z Pohranicni Straze, and Gero Blatenskeho Zamku. Sometimes the SL  dog can be quite spectacular as well. The breeder of my first GSD ( a SL ) owned a grandson of VA6 Kai Vom Silberbrand ( and by extension a great grandson of 1972  VA1/Seiger Marko Vom Cellerland ). This dog was called Pirate  ( a large black and gold male ), he was  too large for the show ring ( 28 inches at the withers and a muscular 105 pounds when lean ). Pirate was never formally trained but he displayed some amazing natural ( genetic ) working ability. My friend ( the owner ) would throw a dime into some thicket bushes and Pirate would search for that dime like a dynamo; for 2 hours you would hear thicket branches just popping , until he recalled by his owner ( what amazing hunt drive ). If you came too close to his owner, Pirate would begin to circle both of you, and then he would deliberately run between both of you, brushing yoiu with the side of his body to make space between you and his owner.( is that some kind of herding instinct? ). If you spoke too loudly or moved your hands up and down he would beging to hackle slightly, and you just knew he meant business. Pirate lived in the house with his owner's family;Pirate would allow you to enter the house but he would not let you leave, until his owner opened the door to let you out. As a showline dog and without formal training, Pirate seemed to have possessed  very strong working instincts. 

The use of the dog  "pirate'' is an example for the need for some type of exposesure for top breed dogs. I bet every single person on this chat room can give a story of some great dog who lived in someones back yard and home who was the envy of all GSD people. They are often a genetic dead end because they never get bred or are bred a small amount to the wrong dogs. Everyone who    receives positive attention here has years of experience with the GSD. Susie, Duke, and prager to name a few, have multiple interests in the GSD. They contribute many times to the chat room and they're treated with respect by most. I see a common denominator in all of the threads which interest me. The need for better GSDs. The need for more education of owners of GSDs. The need for strong organization for the GSD. I believe the most important GSD in the world is the bomb dog who finds the next bomb threatening our military, our infrastructure, and our lives. What leads to the production of these dog[s]? There are many LE dogs out there now. Having many people train their GSDs and strive for a dog who fits the standard is the way. Argueing what long dead dog was better is pointless. Argueing what sport is better is a waste of time. Telling me you have the best dog in your back yard is most likely the truth, but it gets lonely out there, doesn't it? 

Hi gsd student

Pirate was a grandson of VA6 Kai Vom Silberbrand, and he was originally  bred by Malcolm Griffiths of England; he was imported to be used as a show dog, but upon maturity he turned out to be too large for showing.My freind ( J Benard ) then bought Pirate from the person who had imported him from England. The reason why I used Pirate is because there is the general belief bias that  SL dogs cant work. While neve formally trained, Pirate  had amazing hunt drive ( finding a dime in a thicket field /aka finding a needle in a haystack ). By his mere physical stature and stern body language  he would not let you near his owner. You could come to his home, but  Pirate ensured that you had to speak  with a low voice and without too much hand gesticulation; and you needed Mr Bernard's intervention to leave the house. Pirate did all this without barking or showing teeth. A good theory is able to explain a wide class of observations; Pirate contraindicates the belief bias that is often held against the SL GSD.

Well student, THOSE are the kind of dogs I have, not in my back yard, but in my house. I really don't care who believes it, I know it.

   I have no desire to step up to the podium or prance around a ring. My reward and self recognition  of my dogs come from the requests by police for another one, like the last one. $$$ is not my guide.

    My latest pups has one donated to a local school as a service/therapy dog for troubled youth...11 weeks old and posing in school pic like she knows shes all that...AND SHE IS. Is there a better job or service she could provide, "I" think not.

    And it is not the pet people that are seeking these roach backed hock walkers. 9 times out of 10, when someone calls for a puppy, one of the first questions they adk is about conformation.

   9.9 out of 10 people have no clue who the flavor of the month dog is.AND have no interest in knowing who they are. They want a German Shepherd that fits the character of a German Shepherd.

   It's the breeders, not the buyers responsible for the current state of the breed, and a good many German Showline breeders are just as guilty as others of not adhering to basic conformation.

   Temperment is not only born, its built!

   Most are seeking a family member, that will be good protectors of their children. I am so done trying to send a puppy to small breeders to improve their dogs. It will never again be at my dogs expense.

   I love my dogs, they live 'with me'. They are not here for me, but I am here for them.

To get a dog with natural drives and abilities for everyday living, you must start it from the git go.

    I , well my dogs, are more fortunate than many . I have access to living quarters for them that allows them every natural instinct to develope, naturally.

   From the time my pups can get up and down the two steps in and out of the house, not a coop or crate, they are experiencing life...and it sure is a fun life for a pup. I get so much enjoyment watching puppies hunt down a mouse throygh the grass, stalk a bird til it flies away on them.

   When a car pulls up, they join in with the big dogs, alerting to the arrival. The desired behaviors are promoted and adjusted accordingly. 

   What puppy don t love to play...and learn?

   So many dogs brought up for their dollar value only. They get no quality time being taught or allowed to learn and develope NATURAL instincts.

    In many instances, the buyer does not get what they are after. Every breeder has a responsibility  first and foremost, to their dog. How can you really put the right pup to the right buyer/situation, if you don t know that dog?

    Every line of German Shepherd should be bred to the same standard, but not every job a dog has will ever be the same. There really should not be any 'unemployed' German Shepherds.

mithuna and kk; I do not doubt your stories. I just wonder if they do anything to forward the GSD breed. I believe that a bomb dog is the most important job for the GSD, but in  genetic value to the breed, any dog who does not get bred has no value. MOST POLICE DOGS DO NOT GET BRED. All GSD lovers should support the breed beyond their back yards. Dog sport and trialing done correctly will help this breed. 

But unfortunately, gsdstudent, many of the best trial dogs are not the dogs who should be bred. Back to the test vs. competition thing...