Discernment - Page 14

If I had a goat herding dog to be bred to, and you saw the dog work with your own eyes, and not just taking my word for it, seems that is the way of making a decision, titled dog or not.
The point, which you apparently missed, concerning sun's dog, was that the dog, according to her, is unsafe and a liability. Assuming the bitch was breed able (but is probably spayed...rescue dog) and suppose the bitch did get a title. According to recommendations, she then would be a breeding prospect, regardless of temperament. There's the folly in putting so much weight in schH titles.
I'm not suggesting now and have not suggested doing away with schH training and titling a dog. The problem is that there are many unsound dogs receiving schH titles which do not represent what the GSD is supposed to be and that title is used to qualify the unsound, non representative animal as a breeding dog or bitch.

there are many more unsound dogs being bred without tests, like IPO, or HGH  than tiled dogs who are bred. There are more dogs being bred without hip, elbow, or any other health screening test than dogs which have test certification. You do not know if sunsliver's dog is a liability in different hands [ no offence SS] or even able to title yet you indite the whole method put forth by the SV. Taking some one word for a breed worth dog is not working. Getting involved to know if the pronounced rating is special or a gift takes involvement and effort.

@ Joan , let it rest..........you have good dogs, I have good dogs, we are either lucky or know what we are doing....let other go their route and time tells all!

edited

One other thing; there is not a problem with promoting the GSD breed, it already ranks second in popularity according to AKC stats.
As for a national group with international ties... That has existed for years and look what that has gotten for the breed. If that was the fix, there wouldn't be anything TO fix.
If an unsound temperament and a danger to society still qualifies as a dog perfect for schH, then that doesn't say much for what a schH dog might be. Doesn't matter squat how much the club members learn from it, a typical breeder is going breed that bitch, just because they managed to get her titled....the dog still has a crappy temperament, even if training got her through the routine to get a title. (note, I'm NOT criticizing Sunsilver, but her female is a perfect representation of what the fallacy is in believing schH titles are the fix for the problems with the breed) BTW, gsdstudent, I'm not indicting SV, only pointing out the flaw in your recommendation. Edit: I posted before seeing Gustav's post, and I will .

Prey drive is not the issue, Sunsilver; great nerve will cap prey drive or allow the appropriate training control the behavior. Lack of nerve allows the prey to override the attempts you have made to extinguish behavior in the dog. Good discernment which would tell the dog that only in certain situations is another dog necessary to aggress upon is also not functioning. In my mythical world of discernment, there is a strong connection with concrete nerves on the dogs part allowing instinctive responses to filter through in situations. Nothing in this breed is isolated, or at least supposed to be....there is an inter connecting of drives, character, temperament, and traits,....but the nerves of the breed today often is not aligned properly with the drives or traits, thus giving expressions of temperament and behavior that are what we see today.
 

Lack of training is a definite factor in this dog's problems. She was tied up outdoors for most of her life. (Not discounting the role of genetics, though!) Other dogs wandering the country side could attack her, and steal her food. Her 'owner' only came to feed her every 3 or 4 days.

What I find VERY interesting since reading Manfred's article is that the only places a GSD is allowed to bite to discipline a sheep are the neck, ribs and upper hind leg. Those are EXACTLY the 3 places Gracie went for when first introduced to my two GSDs. First, she went for the nape of my female's neck. On the second attempt at an introduction, she went for the ribs, and actually nipped her. The third time, with Ranger, it was the hind leg above the hock, and just as Manfred describes, she would NOT let go!

A herding dog's instincts gone wrong? That's what I think, anyway!  Maybe with proper training and a different environment, she would have made a good herding dog, instead of being a liability!

It is obvious from Manfred's articles that the ability to herd comes from prey drive. I have heard (don't know how true this is!) that herding dogs gone 'rogue' kill more livestock than natural predators. (Maybe that's another one of these 'myths' that keeps popping up....)

So, the primary problem would be lack of good nerve, Gustav?

(And yes, I have confirmed Gracie is spayed!)


 

SS, maybe you will never be able to figure out why  your rescue behaves as she does.

I have seen many many dogs that have been tied up and teased and what have you during early years, they get into good hands at three, four, five, start some meaningful training or better owners, and they respond like a plant getting water and sunshine. Sure they were deprived or some call it abused, but were able to overcome in good environment because nerve base was good. 
Let me see if I can tie this together; before dogs became people in the last forty years, it was common place for dogs to be tethered to trees and poles in backyards. Dog socialization was virtually unheard of....now if my premise about nerves being stronger back then holds, then it would not be unusual for a dog tied in the back yard all or most of its life, being donated to military or police and becoming successful. I wonder if any of the old timers ever hear of this occurring in 60's.  Of course if they're basically the same(nerves), then these dogs would be permanently damaged from the abuse of being tied out in the yard always and the lack of socialization. As this is a common reason for dogs being skittish, over aggressive, unsure, etc, dog was abused by his upbringing! I'm really curious what happened with these dogs back then when removed from those drastic conditions....if you were around back then....please enlighten us. There is a history to draw from, we don't need speculation!

There's a reason dogs end up in rescue or pound. And it's not always because of abuse.