Hock walker? - Page 14

No kidding, Joanro. We have that in common;  a dog I co-owned was exhibited at the German Sieger and the Austrian Sieger and did pretty well too. Who'd a thunk?

Yea, but I raised mine from a little pup and didn't/ don't co- own him.Nothing is more educational than hands on experience.

Ibrahim, you display great respect and humility from a home far away from typical German Shepherd Dog "circles.". Carry on..... Best to you, Kevin Nance

Ibrahim,
First let me say that you cannot gloss over the creator's outright plea to keep his dog a working dog, his definition of beauty being utility, inteeligence, courage; and his opinion that breeding for show was detrimental to the breed. He makes these things clear....not Gustav, but the creator who you referenced. Second, if he placed such a high premium on working ability, then if the structure starts to deteriorate in working ability, then the breed is not going in the right direction. Thirdly, the reason many feel that the VA dogs, such as Mutz, Bernd, or Marko were correct in structure is because the structure translated into good working ability, like he emphasized. You can't separate the structure from the temperament in assessing a good dog. You must have both!!!! BUT he made it clear that working was the intention and outcome of this breed. I made the point that these dogs were rated excellent according to the standard in structure by the same standard as today.....but part of that standard and assessment was the temperament. That's why Canto was never VA.....because of between the ears in addition to parentage. The structure of today's dogs are not superior to say Mutz and Marko and Bernd, if it translates into it primarily being useful in gaiting. You can't have a slippage in working and performance and still say the "breed" is better than dogs that had structure and working. That's why he cautioned against "Show"....what he cautioned against has come to past.....how can you think, he would think, that is superior. Lastly, the dogs I bring to your attention have good moderate structure that transfer to performance....today's ring dog have extremes that accentuate the gait and have lessened the working capacity. This is not what the creator wrote he wanted to happen to the breed....he made it clear so we don't have to guess or surmise how he felt about these things. Now people do surmise about his creation to accomodate their likes, but it is contrary to what he expressed himself time and time again.

Thank you Kevin so much, your words are more cheering up than a cold drink in a very hot day 

Kevin,,I feel the same way about Ibrahim too..

Gustav,,Would you post the full names of these dogs you mentioned. I would like to look them up.  Mutz, Bernd, or Marko,,thanks  ...Thank

Never mind.........

Nice post, Kevin. I have come to respect and admire Ibrahim for his dedication to learn as much as he can about all aspects of breeding good GSD's.

Gustav, you are a true stewart of the breed. I'm happy to have met you.

In between some of the childish comments there are some real gems in this discussion. Ibrahim hit the nail on the head, what the creators of the breed started with were not the end but the clay from which they could mold their vision. We are still very far from consistently producing across the board dogs that meet that vision spelled out in the breed standard. The founders instituted a system by which the breed could stay on course to meet that goal. That system included testing the dogs working ability, temperament, and structure. To do this they came up with titles for both working and showing and a breed survey. If you are not doing all of these you are not breeding schaeferhunds. It is hard and rare for someone to be an expert at all of these things that is why we need a community dedicated to the breed to help one another. We have the best dogs on the planet and we fall short of this trust and prove ourselves unworthy when we attack each other. I think there are some that do not understand what they are posting. They think by condemning roach back hockwalkers they are only criticizing bad breeders when in fact once that send button is hit they have indicted everyone who is trying to live up to Max's vision. Some think the internet can convey the whole context of a face to face dialog, it can't, your point does not come through as you meant it. Others are just too immature to participate in an adult conversation. This could be a real good discussion on a point of structure. In every point of structure we have a range of what is acceptable, breedings that fall outside those ranges should not be repeated. There are many breeders that understand which dog you breed to which dog. A lot inexperienced breeders don't understand when you breed two dogs together that are at the extremes of angulation you are going to get something outside the boundaries of acceptable. It serves no purpose to paint all with the same brush. To the original post: we do not have enough evidence to declare the dog a hockwalker, we would need a picture showing the hock on the ground. The working community have a lot to offer the show person both in knowledge and if they would show their dogs it would improve the breed. It has been stated by Dog1 that the Sieger show is graded on a curve, no more than 20% can fail the bite work. If half the dogs present were real schutzhund dogs the washout rate would be unacceptable to the show breeders, no more feeding the sleeve and waving the magic fairy wand over the dog. The working person could benefit from a top show person, an in depth discussion on structure could guide them to pick better specimens of the breed. I do not believe it is necessary to mix the lines to get a good dog, more attention should be paid to structure in the working line and working ability should be mandatory for the showline. I would really like to see X-rays of all the dogs presented here and see which are close to the standard. - Hugh