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by myret on 21 September 2011 - 14:09
by Wildmoor on 21 September 2011 - 17:09
Pod not sure what the links to M Guillard are for anyone who has read my previous posts in the past know I am not a fan of him, I use other vets for any Orthopeadic xrays who are specialist Orthopeadic Surgens, in the UK every year there are those dogs/bitchs produced with 0:0 hip score 95% of these are WG S/L - I have one of these with this score he was re x-rayed at the age of 5 1/2 yrs due to an accident along with his spine and pelvis at this age there was no evidence of any changes in the bones or joints, the damage he did have was just to one of his stifles and meniscus again this was caused by trauma and no sign of any degenerative condition in his other stifle.
On discussion with the surgeons the GSDs they normaly have in both for severe HD requiring surgery, ruptures to the cruciate caused by degeneration and spinal problems are from GSDs that are English breeding in particular those bred for colour.
My dog was the first WG S/L they had treated and his condition is not a degenerative one
Re the mean hip score in the UK a 5yr average is 16 if the UK KC stopped allowing those that breed the other type from breeding from high and extremely uneven scores it would be even lower - when I get time I will complete a mean score for just the WG S/L in the UK for you for the same years 2005-10 so you can compare.
maybe you can do the same in your Country and compare working strains to AKC to WG S/L
by Mark3 on 21 September 2011 - 17:09
I think Pod has a very valid point - With the low profile and increased angulations, the leg joints must fold excessively under the body increasing the strain due to the pull of gravity. Dogs like all of us have to move through the Earth’s gravitational field.
by pod on 21 September 2011 - 18:09
You are again citing your dog as if to suggest that he, with a 0:0 hip score, is typical for show type construction. It is understandable that you are influenced by your own personal experience but this dog is just one anecdote. If you read the article you will see that osteoarthritis does not occur in dogs that are free from hip dysplasia, and obviously not every dog of extreme conformation has increased joint laxity.
I know that the construction of the WG showline dog has been the target of criticism in the last few years and I do see that this may not appear entirely fair when the Alsatian type has similar extreme angulation and joint problems but, this should not be a reason to distract away from the real problems that affect the GSD.
by Abby Normal on 21 September 2011 - 18:09
My thoughts too. I had one of my dogs at a very high profile Ortho specialists some years ago, and no reference was made to type, simply to the breed. Frankly his focus was the problem, not the type of GSD.
Pod
Agree there too. Anecdotal evidence is just that, and you can bet there are another bunch of people out there with anecdotal evidence to the contrary. Quoting mean scores as an accurate guide also seems flawed to me, as not all plates taken are submitted and scored, skewing any results.
I too think it is very important not to detract from the problems be breed as a whole faces.
Very informative and interesting thread.
by Wildmoor on 21 September 2011 - 19:09
Mark3 they did make reference to type as the surgeon was interested in Zandi because to her he is the her ideal GSD, she also made reference to his temperment as they normally get windy ones in. I use 2 different Orthos for different things - for scoring I use one that predominately x-rays working gundogs
Pod I think Abbynormal as answered this question! a vet who recommends non submission of plates he/she believes are going to be above 12 so therefore shouldnt be bred from is not a vet I would use or recommend, vets I use make you sign before x-rays taken and dont give a choice they are submitted regardless of scores - I am not just stating my dog there are many HD free dogs from WG S/L in the UK there are few of other types
by Abby Normal on 21 September 2011 - 20:09
Just to clarify, what I said was that many plates weren't submitted for scoring because they may not pass. I did not suggest that the vet determined they shouldn't be sent, that is usually the decision of the owner of the dog. The vet may give an opinion, and the owner may make their decision on whether to submit based on that information.
If you book a dog for xrays of the hips with your vet, they tell you that you must pay for submission of the plates to the BVA, and you must sign an agreement for them to be submitted? Don't get me wrong, I wish that were the case internationally, am just surprised! Just a thought:- does this apply when someone has a pet dog that keeps going lame and they are going to x ray the hips when they are trying to identify the cause?
Which leads me to another point, most dogs (pet dogs) are never x rayed, let alone scored, so it's impossible to know how many HD free or HD affecteds there really are in any population, and the majority of GSDs bred go to pet homes, regardless of their origin.
by Wildmoor on 21 September 2011 - 22:09
The vet I use for this is approx 42 miles away he x-rays by appointment 3 days per week specifically for this and follows the BVA sccheme procedures notes as required by all vets
2a
prior to radiography of the dog’s hips, the owner must complete and sign the first section of the certificate (the Owner’s Declaration) verifying that the details given in that section relate to the dog being submitted, that the details are correct and granting permission for the results to be used in the ways specified.
so yes you sign at the time and hand the cheque over written out to the BVA prior to the dog being xrayed it is a requirement by all vets - but it is like all rules and regulations there are those that do not follow and those that do - glad to say the one I use follows them, prior to the appointment you are informed to bring the cheque written out for the correct amount to the BVA
No it wouldnt apply to someone taking a pet dog in due to lameness it is up to the owner to inform the vet and request submission for scoring under the scheme when you arrange the appointment, but like I stated above the vet I use does this on set days
re dogs going into pet homes at one time it was these that were predominately scored especialy the elbow scheme if you look at the first 6 years of that scheme - there are numerous dogs who go into pet homes that are scored by the owners
by Abby Normal on 22 September 2011 - 06:09
there are numerous dogs who go into pet homes that are scored by the owners
It is a miniscule number given the overall pet GSD population.
Scoring generally (including breeding and show dogs) is miniscule given the size of the GSD population.
by pod on 22 September 2011 - 06:09
But, I have to ask, why would this affect your view of the articles written? Surely information that could have such a major impact on the health of the breed should be given fair analysis whoever has researched and written it, and here we have a vet with specialist qualifications and experience in the field - http://www.mikeguilliard.co.uk/id1.html
Would it not be wise to put aside personal feelings in the interest of breed health, and give support to researches who take an interest in our breeds. After all, this vet has not presented this conformation/osteoarthritis association as a proven fact, more as an an area requiring more research. The co-oporation of breeders and owners in the collaction of data for the purpose of research is vital.
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