Discernment - Page 13

Re: some 'dislikes'  (presumably some are Trolls but some are ppl who just
don't agree with some point in those posters' comments ?)  - I agree, it
is hard to tell what is being 'disliked' about some posts, trouble
is the facility of 'thumbs up / down' allows ppl to be lazy and not
post their opinions / disagreements in full.  We didn't perhaps
foresee that when we asked for a 'like' option !  (vk, what screen are
you using ? - we have had the facility to Like/Dislike ever since Oli's
last big overhaul of the site - i.e. since you joined PDB).

Back OT:  this has been a fascinating discussion, and so Thank You to
Cliff, for posting it, and to Koach and others for your insight on 'discernment'.  
I'm still not entirely clear about it as a concept tho', precisely because some of
us find it hard to see what some others of us are talking about, so it seems
to me there is very much an element of personal mindsets or philosophies
at work, underlying perceptions.  EG  I really get what Beetree said about
the difference between Mojo and Beau, with the older GSD opening the gate
FOR the younger crossbreed.  Not sure you all do ?

Could you all consider commenting on the nature of these examples, and
whether you believe that they are each 'instinct', 'self-preservation', 'extreme
intelligence' OR 'discernment' ?  Thanks.

1 My  dog Taz (show bred, SV type) does not appear to have a prey drive
when it involves any 'prey' - deer, rabbits, squirrels do not get chased after
at all, cats and foxes at least arouse his curiosity.  But he has been a
demon ball-chaser since the get-go.

2  His great great great great granddam was a bitch who was always aloof
with strangers;  and even seemed a bit 'windy' in some situations.  But
unbidden and when fully adult, we started walking past a Day Centre for
mentally disturbed / handicapped adults on some of our walks, and when
some of the clients were sitting out on the front wall during nice weather
and wanted to pet her, Sasha was extremely sweet & gentle with all of them.

3  Back to Taz: he is now ten & a half, I suffer from arthritis and for some time
have had quite a lot of difficulty getting back on my feet when I have to kneel
down (eg to clean something, or whatever).  I have noticed recently that even
though he isn't as strong and fit as he was when younger, he increasingly does
what others with 'service / assistance' dogs have often described, he comes
and stands by me and positively 'encourages' me to lean on him while getting up.

Whaddya reckon, folks ?

There are more breeds involved in what used to be the GSD domain today. But there was little availability of the Mal in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. If available would they have been in Vietnam? What course of action will change this displacement of the GSD in service? Will PSA ever being strong enough to change the direction of breeding? What else can be done? The dogs being imported into the USA and other Countries are produced by some force. Is it just demand? What will the evolution look like? Get involved.

Discernment in my other two GSDs:

Star has very strong ball drive, and often sleeps with a ball in her mouth. She also has some true prey drive, because when she was a pup, I caught her with a baby robin between her paws. She was plucking off the feathers, obviously intending to make a meal out of it!  However, though she isn't as good with my cat as my older dog, Ranger, she tolerates it and will not hurt it. Gracie,OTOH, would likely kill it without a second thought. So, that's where the discernment comes in: although ball drive is a part of prey drive (instinct to hunt down and kill fast-moving objects) Star knows there is a difference between a ball and a cat or small child.

Star did the temperament test last Fall, and when the bad guy came running out, shouting like a maniac, and pounding the ground with a stick, she startled a bit, then turned her head and LOOKED UP AT ME for guidance. When I showed no reaction, she continued to watch the guy closely until he disappeared behind the blind again. She is my service dog, and she did EXACTLY what a good service dog should do: look to its owner for guidance. She was also fairly aloof with meeting strangers, and though she would allow petting, didn't approach them and ask for it (this has been trained through telling her 'leave it' and 'no sniff'.)

Ranger, my male, probably saved my life one night when I fell into a fence post hole and couldn't get out. He allowed me to brace on his back, and pull myself free. It was below freezing that night, and without his help, I might have succumbed to hypothermia before morning. Although he had training as my hearing ear dog, he'd never been taught to brace.

Man has developed many different breeds for many different purposes. It is good for a sheep herding dogs  not  to kill sheep, of any age but then terriers would kill small animals on sight to keep a barn clear of vermin. We can breed for certain traits for our purposes and then a good trainer will hone the dogs skills to benefit their needs. Dogs sport is one method to identify specimens with valuable traits for breeding partners. Dog sport is also enjoyable to an individual owner for competition and socialization. I believe over the years sport has morphed into something which is enjoyable by the dog also. There are judges out there, Doug Deacon is only one example out of many judges, who will tell you in the critique which dogs might not have had the most points but demonstrated the best  purpose. Unfortunately the critique is seldom published on line or in the magazines. How can every enthusiast of the GSD help? Join a national club. When it is possible, join two.

Join two clubs to save the GSD.....yeah, that's the ticket. LMAO.

joanro; do want everyone to join 3 clubs? your plan? my suggestion might be a little ''pie in the sky''. But I will ready myself for any other plan of action.

Doesn't matter how many clubs a person joins, the problems are still not going away.
I don't have a plan for saving the GSD, but your plan is indeed pie in the sky. As an example, sun silver described her rescue GSD as very unbalanced and a danger to society or whatever, but in the same breath, made the claim the the dog was perfect for schH. What the f$$$k ?
I don't have time to list all the reasons I don't believe joining one or two or ten clubs is going to ""save" the GSD, but above example is profound.

To back up what I said about prey drive, please have a look at the article Blitzen has posted in the thread about structure:

http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/the-genetic-origin-of-the-breed/

It is written by Schaefermeister Manfred Heyne:
 

At schutzhund training there is a new magic word called “prey drive”.  It means that the dog is expected to grip the sleeve and with much praise from his handler carry it far off the field!!  You can imagine a herding dog running all day long, having the occasion to discipline a sheep and then dragging it as prey all over the place ─ and then [to add insult to injury] you need an electric shock collar just to make him let go!!!  These dogs have something wrong in the head ─ they have become the victims of politics!!!

Prey drive has its place in herding: Manfred tests the puppies at 6 to 8 weeks old, to see if they have the genetic grip needed to discipline unruly sheep (grabbing the sheep by the neck, hind leg or ribs.)  http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/the-large-flock-herding-dog/
 

3.  From 4-7 weeks, every other day put a lamb in with the litter.  Start with a very young lamb and increase the size of the lamb as the puppies grow.  Note those puppies consistently showing only an intense attraction to the lamb — i.e. ones, which approach the lamb with tail wagging and strong eye contact.  Repeat this test every other day for 3 weeks to see if interest is maintained with the same intensity; 

4.  After 7 weeks, put a size-appropriate lamb in with the litter to see which ones consistently grip the lamb in the three places allowed for gripping — the top of the neck, the ribs and just above the hock.  Eliminate those puppies that grip in the wrong places; and, 

5. Between 8 and 12 weeks, individually test each puppy that passed the earlier tests on a larger lamb.  The size of the lamb used for individual testing should depend on the courage and aggressiveness of the puppy — the lamb should provide a significant challenge and a certain amount of stress for the puppy.  Keep in mind the puppy still has milk teeth which cannot get through the thick wool of the larger lamb.  This test is to see if the puppy has the drive, nerve, temperament and courage to deal with and “subdue” a large lamb — preferably a ram lamb. 

However, before anyone gets upset thinking that these tests are abusive to the lambs or to the puppies let me say that the tests I am describing are done with age-appropriate and size-appropriate lambs with thick wool.  To use too large a lamb would be abusive to the puppies and to use too small a lamb would be abusive to the lamb.  Puppies with milk teeth cannot get thru the wool of an age-appropriate and size-appropriate lamb to do any damage to it.  The only way a puppy that age could hurt a lamb would be to intentionally bite at the face and ears or to go for the lower legs which are unprotected by wool — if the puppy presents that behavior it is removed from testing anyway because that behavior is to be selected against in a large flock German shepherd herding dog.  Bear in mind that it is just as predictive of herding potential and far less risky to test for grips, drive and other prey behavior in a puppy than to try to test for these same qualities later in an older dog when an older dog is capable of doing serious damage to sheep. 

Now, what does puppy testing with a lamb reveal about the puppy’s genetic make-up through the grip?  When you begin testing the whole litter together in a pen with a lamb, you can see the different ways each puppy deals with “stress” in what should be an “attractive” situation for the puppy.  The puppies’ behaviors will range anywhere from full avoidance to high-level attraction — first with the eye and then with the mouth — and everywhere in between.  Once the puppies have shown which of them have the drive, temperament and “courage” to further pursue their attraction to the lamb by grabbing(biting) it, you start testing them individually. 

In these tests the whole world of instinct opens up to you and you can observe often times the full range of geneticly driven behavior through the whole litter.  The contrasts in behavior among individuals in the group actually helps make the drive and temperament of each puppy more obvious.  Once you have determined which puppies have the drive and the temperament to be able to “possess” the lamb by gripping it and by holding on, then you are able to test each pup individually to see exactly what grip each puppy has genetically.  This grip will be exactly what the puppy will bring with him to adulthood.  This grip is exactly what the bite will be under stress and pressure when the dog is high in drive — ANY drive.  These puppy tests show which puppies will have more or less hectic(damaging) bites, which will have shallow(damaging) bites, which will have full-mouth(proper) bites and most important which puppies will hold on to the sheep come hell or high water and fight with all their might to hold on — and which won’t.  Over the testing time you will see each puppy fall into a very fixed pattern where the bite and behavior in the bite situation becomes consistent day after day, week after week, and, when given an opportunity to perform the same test at 9 months or a year, EXACTLY the same as what you saw at 8-11 weeks.  Throughout the many weeks of puppy testing, the shepherd should also constantly watch to see how each puppy would relate to him and how each one would respond to the tones of his voice.  The importance of this can be seen later in the discussion of the formal education of the large flock herding dog in the field. 

The best prospective large flock herding puppy I have ever seen tested would immediately jump up on a large ram-lamb because it couldn’t reach the top of the lamb’s neck without standing on its hind legs and with its front feet on the lamb’s back take the lamb by the top of the neck with a full mouth grip.  The lamb would immediately start to buck and toss itself around lifting the puppy off all four feet swinging it around 180 degrees at a time and then it would turn sharply into the puppy which was still gripping the top of the lamb’s neck and sort of get the puppy turned almost upside down while it still held on to the lamb.  At this point you could hear the puppy give a good grrrrrrowl while holding on until it gradually worked its way right side up again. The puppy never let go of its grip.  Finally the lamb just stopped and stood still.  The puppy stood on its hind legs with its front feet again on the lamb’s back and let go of the lamb while still standing over the lamb’s neck.  The puppy had enough confidence to let go of the lamb and enough instinct to stay in control position on the lamb by being ready to grip again if the lamb should try to get away — which it did, and, when it did, the puppy was ready and able to re-grip.  This puppy definitely wanted to possess that lamb.  This puppy demonstrated these things at 10-11 weeks and demonstrated the same intensity and behavior when re-tested at 6 months. 

Puppy test with 11 week old puppy gripping a large ram lamb with a full mouth neck grip.

This method of testing puppies was developed to help accurately select dogs with strong natural prey drives appropriate for sheep herding, self-confidence and the willingness to accept the shepherd as pack leader.  Only those puppies that met this testing criteria 100% were kept for herding — if no puppy tested 100% none would be kept.  Although puppies are assessed from the beginning, one can still only hope for the best because experience shows that the dog’s character, or potential for work, is not fully set before the dog is three years old.  However, by two years of age the dog’s qualities are usually about 75% set. 

One must keep in mind that a working shepherd managing large flocks must be far more demanding of his dog than the hobby herder trying to work relatively few sheep.  A large flock shepherd must know that his dog will maintain its concentration and reliability working sheep for the whole day, every day — not only when the dog is in the shepherd’s view, but also when it is out of the shepherd’s sight.  This intense concentration is possible only in a dog with the highest instinct/drive/attraction to the sheep.  Any dog with some degree of interest in sheep can be trained to herd, but that dog will never have the concentration or reliability to work sheep as the dog with the highest drive and attraction to sheep. 

I do not know the individual dog with Sun silver. If she should title this female it will add to the knowledge of the handler and people watching the event. A title will not change the genetics of the dog. A good judge will paint a picture of the dog's performance. If you listen to critiques a judge will often say '' pronounced'' or ''still pronounce'' to let those with interest know that there is a difference in performance but maybe not rating. There is also suffiient, and failing. To think that sunsilver titling that dog is the root of the problem in this breed ,is over simplifcation of the problem.To not have sport will leave a void in education. I have seen dogs with extreme prey drive work at high levels in police work. I have seen very defensive dogs with extreme prey drive for the ball. I learn from many people from many different paths in the GSD. I might want to breed to your goat herding dog but I can not take your word as my only pre breeding test.  Abe Lincoln and my parents taught me to be discerning in my choices for life. A National group with international ties will promote the breed better than any other way I have seen.