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by Preston on 23 February 2012 - 07:02
Daryleret, yes the judging has drifted likely due to kennel blindness caused by $ motivated perceptual shifts, especially at the SiegerSchau (some regard as the grand sales convention for zuchtschau). I do not believe the problem lies in the structure of the SV, but the hearts and mind of individual SV members. When enough members reach a critical mass who demand more true use of the FCI/SV standard, a major tipping point will be reached and better GSDs which are truer to the standard will be put up at the SiegerSchau. True to the standard judging is really easy to use if one uses transparency projections of each dogs photos with the standard to compare conformation with. After a while it becomes automatic for many. Use thin vellum paper and trace any correct GSd like Lasso or his brother and compare any other dog by placing that tracing over it. You will see what is correct or not correcty easily.
It is not fair to judge the way the GSD breed is being evaluated in total by the central sales convention each year, since it is often pre-arranged due to market realities related to the cartel which emerged from far too much success selling the Black and Red show lines dogs all over the world. I have had it both ways, bought a B & R super star that was unhealthy and deficient temperament and also later on, two that turned out to be far better than I expected in temperament and health. The key was I did my homework after the first mistake. But I admit it has always been the stunning B & R beauty and curbside appeal that drew me toward each acquisition.
I truly believe that there are many excellent GSDs back into the V ratings at the Sieger Schau that vary from the cookie cutter (roach back) type and are far better conformed in many cases. Some are excellent specimens and terrific producers, but do not have the political backing of the cartel members. There are many fantastic GSDs at the Landsgruppen shows (regional SV shows) in Zuchtschau that are excellent in every way and bred by folks who refuse to breed the type of dog and play the politics required to compete in the top ranks at the SiegerSchau. They chart their own path and breed responsibly and often produce impressive quality, GSDs very worthy of acquisition and true to the standard. There are very good SV GSD breeders all over the world (with the highest concentrations in Germany and Europe of course due to the huge number of clubs). Some GSD at the shows are great dogs but not adequately trained for show and have huge untapped potential. Nowdays, the breeding numbers are dropping due to urbanzation, high costs and women often having to work outside the home. And there is much less time for training in many cases, so some great GSDs don't get the attention they should when shown.
It is not fair to judge the way the GSD breed is being evaluated in total by the central sales convention each year, since it is often pre-arranged due to market realities related to the cartel which emerged from far too much success selling the Black and Red show lines dogs all over the world. I have had it both ways, bought a B & R super star that was unhealthy and deficient temperament and also later on, two that turned out to be far better than I expected in temperament and health. The key was I did my homework after the first mistake. But I admit it has always been the stunning B & R beauty and curbside appeal that drew me toward each acquisition.
I truly believe that there are many excellent GSDs back into the V ratings at the Sieger Schau that vary from the cookie cutter (roach back) type and are far better conformed in many cases. Some are excellent specimens and terrific producers, but do not have the political backing of the cartel members. There are many fantastic GSDs at the Landsgruppen shows (regional SV shows) in Zuchtschau that are excellent in every way and bred by folks who refuse to breed the type of dog and play the politics required to compete in the top ranks at the SiegerSchau. They chart their own path and breed responsibly and often produce impressive quality, GSDs very worthy of acquisition and true to the standard. There are very good SV GSD breeders all over the world (with the highest concentrations in Germany and Europe of course due to the huge number of clubs). Some GSD at the shows are great dogs but not adequately trained for show and have huge untapped potential. Nowdays, the breeding numbers are dropping due to urbanzation, high costs and women often having to work outside the home. And there is much less time for training in many cases, so some great GSDs don't get the attention they should when shown.
by aaykay on 23 February 2012 - 12:02
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And when balance is moved one way it suffers in another.
THIS. It becomes unbalanced.
The people who like all of these things, that are necessary for winning in sport or show, are responsible for dogs like Marko, Mutz, and Bernd no longer being fashionable. They also yell the loudest when you point these things out because they want to continue to travel down these paths, although everybody not playing the show/sport game can see the damage.....Winning and money run the breed today....period!!!
Yes. The dog is not being used for a job like the old Schaefermeister's did.. where they were paid to handle large flocks of sheep that were a composite of small flocks owned by various people in a town or village. If the Schaefermeister lost a sheep HE had to pay for it.. just as those who owned the sheep were paying HIM to care for them, grow them, lamb them and fatten them! The dog had a real job to do and the living of the Schaefermeister and his family depended on the dog(s). ONLY DOGS THAT WORKED LIVED AND BRED. Others were removed from the gene pool.
No one does this anymore.. and the dogs are used for sport and showing... and money is made FROM the dogs, not from the work the dogs do.
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Totally agree. The people doing both sport and show are responsible for balanced dogs not being fashionable. The sport side breeding prey monkeys and the show side breeding pretty (but otherwise totally useless - temperamentally and structurally) black/red/tan dogs that can trot prettily around a ring. Neither of these groups are of any interest to me, since neither side have the balanced temperament that the GSD is known for. In fact, the sport breeders have the temerity to call these prey monkeys as "working dogs".
I used to be into show GSDs a couple of decades back, and after recently coming back into GSDs, I am amazed at how far the show GSD had deteriorated, under the "guidance" of the leaders (SV et al). Thank goodness the new RSV2000 organization is drawing a firm line in the sand and driving against the current trend and breeding for balanced specimens.
I passionately dislike the "stacked" show stance. What is wrong with the dog standing normally ? I like the stance adopted by the RSV dogs.....just a beautiful GSD standing normally.
That posted video of the useless, weak show GSDs (that actually are "champions", believe it or not !) trotting weakly around the showring, was the most telling sign of how far this breed had deteriorated, in the space of time that I was away from GSDs. That silly show judge had the temerity to call the show GSDs that he was judging, as a better representative of the breed (structurally no less !) than the sound working line dogs ! Once I got back to the GSD (recently), I never could even consider buying anything less than a good, solid working line dog.
And when balance is moved one way it suffers in another.
THIS. It becomes unbalanced.
The people who like all of these things, that are necessary for winning in sport or show, are responsible for dogs like Marko, Mutz, and Bernd no longer being fashionable. They also yell the loudest when you point these things out because they want to continue to travel down these paths, although everybody not playing the show/sport game can see the damage.....Winning and money run the breed today....period!!!
Yes. The dog is not being used for a job like the old Schaefermeister's did.. where they were paid to handle large flocks of sheep that were a composite of small flocks owned by various people in a town or village. If the Schaefermeister lost a sheep HE had to pay for it.. just as those who owned the sheep were paying HIM to care for them, grow them, lamb them and fatten them! The dog had a real job to do and the living of the Schaefermeister and his family depended on the dog(s). ONLY DOGS THAT WORKED LIVED AND BRED. Others were removed from the gene pool.
No one does this anymore.. and the dogs are used for sport and showing... and money is made FROM the dogs, not from the work the dogs do.
==========================
Totally agree. The people doing both sport and show are responsible for balanced dogs not being fashionable. The sport side breeding prey monkeys and the show side breeding pretty (but otherwise totally useless - temperamentally and structurally) black/red/tan dogs that can trot prettily around a ring. Neither of these groups are of any interest to me, since neither side have the balanced temperament that the GSD is known for. In fact, the sport breeders have the temerity to call these prey monkeys as "working dogs".
I used to be into show GSDs a couple of decades back, and after recently coming back into GSDs, I am amazed at how far the show GSD had deteriorated, under the "guidance" of the leaders (SV et al). Thank goodness the new RSV2000 organization is drawing a firm line in the sand and driving against the current trend and breeding for balanced specimens.
I passionately dislike the "stacked" show stance. What is wrong with the dog standing normally ? I like the stance adopted by the RSV dogs.....just a beautiful GSD standing normally.
That posted video of the useless, weak show GSDs (that actually are "champions", believe it or not !) trotting weakly around the showring, was the most telling sign of how far this breed had deteriorated, in the space of time that I was away from GSDs. That silly show judge had the temerity to call the show GSDs that he was judging, as a better representative of the breed (structurally no less !) than the sound working line dogs ! Once I got back to the GSD (recently), I never could even consider buying anything less than a good, solid working line dog.
by aaykay on 23 February 2012 - 14:02
Blitzen: What do you mean by "champions"?
Maybe the ones who typically win the dog "championship" during the dog-show ? If the ones shown in the video actually became "champions", then no wonder why the German police have started to walk away from the GSD (German Shepherd Dog).....something they have happily used for nearly a century......and switch to using the Belgian Malinois (unfortunately, not enough working line German shepherds to bridge the requirements gap and the flood of useless showline shepherds just don't pass the temperament/structural muster any longer) !
Maybe the ones who typically win the dog "championship" during the dog-show ? If the ones shown in the video actually became "champions", then no wonder why the German police have started to walk away from the GSD (German Shepherd Dog).....something they have happily used for nearly a century......and switch to using the Belgian Malinois (unfortunately, not enough working line German shepherds to bridge the requirements gap and the flood of useless showline shepherds just don't pass the temperament/structural muster any longer) !
by johan77 on 23 February 2012 - 18:02
I guess the problem is that both SV and similar breedclubs have too much influence of showbreeders then, hence they have more impact than those who want a workingdog in structue and charuacter. The most intressting question is how the charater should be in a true GSD. I don´t know if RSV preserves the GSD better than those workingpeople in SV, or if it´s even importat that a dog could do more than SCH in their view, their talentsichtung seems like a pretty basic temperamenttest and their korung is not so different from SV what I´ve read, but maybe someone knows the difference more. In the end it´s up to the breeders to produce the type they like, and what people probably wants, both the requiremnts of SV and RSV is just a minimum standard as I see it and no proof the dog are breedworthy or "versatile".
RSV is nothing new either, a similar club was formed in sweden 10 years ago, a place to gather those breeders who are workoriented and feels the official breedclub is to unintressted in the working GSD. Not so long ago a showchampion could also be a workingchampion or PSD, like this dog, it´s really no point in breeding for a type that is more "correct" to the standard than this type, surely max wouldn´t do so anyway,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=128843
RSV is nothing new either, a similar club was formed in sweden 10 years ago, a place to gather those breeders who are workoriented and feels the official breedclub is to unintressted in the working GSD. Not so long ago a showchampion could also be a workingchampion or PSD, like this dog, it´s really no point in breeding for a type that is more "correct" to the standard than this type, surely max wouldn´t do so anyway,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=128843
by aaykay on 23 February 2012 - 19:02
it´s really no point in breeding for a type that is more "correct" to the standard than this type, surely max wouldn´t do so anyway,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=128843
Excellent structure in the above dog. It is the sinking rear-end in the showline dogs of recent years, that turns people like me away from them. How did the GSD (which I love passionately) get to such a poor structural state ? In my opinion, it occurred due to the poor direction provided by organizations like the SV, who wields an outsized influence in the shaping of the breed.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=128843
Excellent structure in the above dog. It is the sinking rear-end in the showline dogs of recent years, that turns people like me away from them. How did the GSD (which I love passionately) get to such a poor structural state ? In my opinion, it occurred due to the poor direction provided by organizations like the SV, who wields an outsized influence in the shaping of the breed.
by duke1965 on 23 February 2012 - 21:02
Johann make no mistake , RSV is making many changes on many fields , health , workability , certification of securitydogs , many many things are happening there , they organize this years German national trackingchampionships
to give example the SV never send dogs/teams to the german national all breed workingchampionships , since RSV is presenting itself and german shepherds there very well for several years ,suddenly the SV forms a good team to go there , and since Helmut started the RSV more and more things that got stuck for ages inside the SV suddenly start moving
you can read the english HELMUT RAISER interview and RSV2000 article in next World of K9 Magazine
to give example the SV never send dogs/teams to the german national all breed workingchampionships , since RSV is presenting itself and german shepherds there very well for several years ,suddenly the SV forms a good team to go there , and since Helmut started the RSV more and more things that got stuck for ages inside the SV suddenly start moving
you can read the english HELMUT RAISER interview and RSV2000 article in next World of K9 Magazine
by Blitzen on 23 February 2012 - 22:02
aakay, the SV does not issue Championship titles. The dog on that video is clearly a GSL.
aakay, I get it - you hate showlines and would never own one. Fine with me and I doubt anyone else reading this who likes SL's is going to lose any sleep over that either.
aakay, I get it - you hate showlines and would never own one. Fine with me and I doubt anyone else reading this who likes SL's is going to lose any sleep over that either.
by Gustav on 23 February 2012 - 22:02
I guess "hating" and "critical" is like "fearless and "viscious", they really have nothing in common, but people see the one as a way to neutralize the other....We need balance in dogs and people.
I criticize the sport dogs all the time, but I don't think they feel I hate them...they need to be more balanced, imo. But when it comes to SL, mad phobia comments arise about your criticisims. That's why it will be hard to improve them; in my opinion....too much sensitivity with the dogs and owners.
I criticize the sport dogs all the time, but I don't think they feel I hate them...they need to be more balanced, imo. But when it comes to SL, mad phobia comments arise about your criticisims. That's why it will be hard to improve them; in my opinion....too much sensitivity with the dogs and owners.
by aaykay on 23 February 2012 - 22:02
aakay, I get it - you hate showlines and would never own one.
Blitzen, no you are mistaken. My family used to have showline GSDs (balanced dogs, mind you) in the past - a couple of decades back. Those were balanced dogs with none of the sinking rear-end that characterizes the recent showlines.
Capt.Von Stephanitz, who is the breed founder, would be turning in his grave, looking at what his beloved breed has deteriorated into.
by Blitzen on 24 February 2012 - 00:02
Sorry if I'm not impressed by disparaging remarks about ANY line GSD. Any fool can fault judge dogs; given a 10 minute orientation, the man off the street can see a roachy topline, a "sinking rear", an out of control vicious dog and flap his/her jaws about how horrible ths dog is, how awful the breed is, yadda, yadda, yadda.
The hard part is recognizing the good qualities and understanding how to prioritize them and use them to accomplish a specific goal that benefits the breed in general. As with the best breeders in all breeds, that was most likely the Captain's greatest strength. I suspect he wouldn't be all that pleased with the breed as it is today, but I also suspect he'd be a lot less pleased with the elitist attitude of some of the breeders.
The hard part is recognizing the good qualities and understanding how to prioritize them and use them to accomplish a specific goal that benefits the breed in general. As with the best breeders in all breeds, that was most likely the Captain's greatest strength. I suspect he wouldn't be all that pleased with the breed as it is today, but I also suspect he'd be a lot less pleased with the elitist attitude of some of the breeders.
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