Panda Shepherd(what do you think?) - Page 12

  RIK,   jmho

If two purebred GSD's get together and make a litter and one comes out PANDA colored.  Does that make it any less than a GSD?  No. It is a pure bred GSD with a faulty coat.  Happens alot.  Long hair is/was a fault...is it it's own specific breed because of a long coat?  No, it's a variation of the breed.  Just like Long/short/wired/bluemerle/dachsunds. Mind you, I'm not comparing the 2 breeds, I'm just saying that just because it's a different color does not mean it's not a GSD!  It is.  Just one with a faulty coat according to the standard.
So, ...doesn't need to be separated from the GSD and made a new breed, that's ludicrious!  Just a faulty coat and shouldn't be bread due to the standard set.  JMHO

Jen

Jen,
I completely agree with you, he is a GSD.  I am responding to those who say there's border collie or whatever else.  He is very much, every inch, a purebred registered GSD.  He just has a white face and freckles.  Nor is it likely Panda's could become a separate breed, as a double cross is not yet possible (according to the UC Vet studying the gene).  A panda can be bred with a black and tan, black, sable or any other colour (except white) to produce the panda colourings, but not to another panda as you will get a litter of black and tans .   Tight line breeding has determined that a Panda carrying two Panda genes is impossible.
My dog is the offspring of the bitch featured in the picture in the second post of this thread, Lewcinkas Franka Von Phenom CD (Panda), and sired by Viernhiemi Lex (black/tan)
I just resent those who think they need to be culled or who regard them as less than any other colour.  I would have thought in this world we were beyond considering anyone or anything less valuable due to the pigment of their skin.
I will dig up a couple more photo's for those who are interested in seeing him.

Danielle

Panda's Mom, that's very strange about the genetics of the colour. (I studied biology in university, and taught it in High School for a number of years, so I know how basic genetics works.)

The website of Frankie's owners says the colour is caused by a mutation. The mutated gene is DOMINANT for the panda colour . If a dominant gene is present, it wil ALWAYS be expressed. In other words, if you cross two pandas ALL the offspring are going to be panda!

I really don't understand how you could get a litter of B&T's. Can you explain this more fully, please?  Is there somewhere where the information is posted on the web?

Thanks!

Sunsilver,

I studied a very little about genetics, they fascinate me.  That said let me point something out.  A color may be dominant but I think it can also become a recessive down the line and if both parents carry it as a recessive then , BINGO. 

I have an awesome example of this. 

Brown eyes are considered dominant.  I had a brown eyed grandma and a blue eyed grandpa.  They had two children, my brown eyed uncle and my blue eyed mom.  My hazel eyed dad's mother had blue eyes.  I don't know about his dad.  Mom & Dad produced a brown eyed girl, a blue eyed girl, a green eyed son and a blue eyed son. 

My green eyed brother married a green eyed woman.  Both of their children have brown eyes.  My blue eyed brother married a brown eyed Hispanic girl.  Their daughter has green eyes, their son has blue. 

Only one of my neices has had children.  She has brown eyes, she married a brown eyed man.  Both of them have dark hair.  Their first child has dark hair and brown eyes.  The other child has blonde hair and blue eyes.  They are the granddaughtes of the green eyed parents. 

My brown eyed uncle married a brown eyed woman and all five of their children have dark brown eyes.  Most, if not all of their offspring have a least one blue eyed child. 

Oh, and just to muddy it up some.  Just one of my cousins was left handed but again, nearly every child of my aunt and uncle had a southpaw born into the family...except for the original southpaw, both of her sons are right handed. 

When my teacher couldn't explain this to me I ended up dropping the class.  She insisted it couldn't happen because of the brown eyes being dominant.  Well, we're living proof that recessives exist and because of those recessives, more than one eyebrow has been raised!

Deb

Hi,
I'm not an expert on the gene by any means, but when I got Maverick, he came with a letter from the geneticist studying the Panda Gene. Mr Mark Neff, Ph.D, VGL Canine Genetics, School of VM, U of C.  He is willing to answer questions by any breeders interested in the genetics of this coat pattern. 

For those genetic experts, his direct comments in the letter are:
"The novel mutation occurred in the Sire's germ line and was then passed down to his daughter (Franka) who was the only offspring of that sire to show the distinguishing markings.  In subsequent generations, the panda pattern has exhibited an autosomal dominant mode of inheritance, consistent with the action of a single gene acting with a full penetranpe.  A double panda dog has not yet been produced."  (I typed this...so any spelling errors are mine, not his)

Here's a clearer pic of Mav that I took this morning.    He's currently 9 months old.

Deb, obviously there is more than one gene that's affecting eye colour. And when you're dealing with multiple genes, the waters get muddy pretty quickly, and it gets very hard to figure out just what's going on, unless you're a geneticist.

But since a geneticist HAS been studying this, I'm hoping Panda's Mom can shed some light on it!  I'm really curious about the genetics of how this happened, especially since the panda colour pattern is so common in other breeds. Was it there all along, but masked by the action of other genes? So many different breeds went into the formation of the GSD that this IS a possibility.

Mutations can occur in several ways.

1) Chromosomes can swap bits and pieces, meaning that a gene that was previously being suppressed by another gene on the same chromosome can now be expressed.

2) There can be a substitution error in the DNA, for example, the amino acid guanine gets swapped for cytosine.

3) Chromosomes can be completely lost (often fatal) or duplicated. Down's Syndrome in humans is known as 'trisomy 21', because there are 3 copies of the 21st chromosome, instead of just two.

From what I understand there's no doubt that the panda gene is a new mutation (just a simple point mutation) and has been identified only in the orginal Franka line.  All other similarly marked Shepherds that are not direct Franka descendants, and dogs of other breeds, are not pandas, they're just normally marked, as in the irish spotting pattern of the S locus.  The difference with panda is that it is dominant, unlike all other white spotting genes but this doesn't mean that all offspring of pandas will inherit the panda pattern.  And no, a dominant mutation can't become recessive.  As Sunsilver has said, with the eye colour example, there are multiple genes at work.

A panda x panda litter, assuming both parents are heterozygotes, has the probability of 75% panda and 25% non panda (of whatever colour is determined by other genes).  Panda (heterozygote) x white, assuming the panda parent doesn't carry white, should have a probability of 50% panda 50% non panda.  If UC have said anything different from the above then it could be that they have found the homozygote to be lethal in utero which would skew the ratios but that still doesn't explain this -
"as a double cross is not yet possible (according to the UC Vet studying the gene)."

Could you expand on that a little PM, or point to a webpage with this info.

Pod, 
The information was included in a letter from the Geneticist.  It shows a profile of the gene and includes the comment " We are reasonably confident that the Panda mutation will not ever cause any health problems.  We are also reasonably confident that it will be impossible to produce a double panda"
That's all I really know, I haven't looked into it any further as I don't intend to breed my dog. 

nevermind.