Discernment - Page 11

Oh, ok. Like my female getting after a goat with force, that refuses to move, but only using her chest to push a baby goat in the desired direction. In other words, not using the same force on a baby as is required on a big buck? So I can see where herding will definately show the discernment or lack of in a dog.

joan not to diminish yr dog's instinct but any decent mutt stock dog can be taught not to be physically aggressive toward young/baby stock. it is one the easier things to teach a dog, most do it instinctively without any training.

just like a 100% screw loose animal killing apbt can be trained to not target a sow when hunting wild hogs and not target the babies as well, not particularly difficult.

 

Herding dogs have that 'nanny' instinct that prevents them from harming the animals they've been trained to care for. Of course, this includes young humans. Many an older breeder of GSDs has told me they didn't need a babysitter when their dogs were around. The dogs would block them from going up stairs, and if they started to stray off the property, they'd be herded back, even if the dog had to grab their clothing to prevent them from crossing that invisible boundary.

The herding GSD also had to think for itself when the shepherd couldn't be physically present.

I've been wanting to share these photos, but have held back because I forget who the dog belongs to. What the heck, I'm sure they won't mind me showing off their dog's herding skills and beautiful flying trot!. A good dog is a good dog, and here is an American show line herding sheep!







If anyone recognizes the dog or the handler, would they please let me know, so I can PM them, and ask if they are okay with this.

would like the vid version, have seen many" herding" pics that later just turn out to be a dog standing next to or running randomly past a bunch of sheep.not saying this is the case, they are nice pics.

Vk, I'm not talking about "teaching" the dog how much force or not. Also, a two hundred pound goat hitting a dog full in the face and knocking the dog a couple flips, then the dog having the guts to confront the animal without killing it, yet within minutes, being able to gear down and only push a baby with her chest....not something that is easy to train and better that my dog figured it out for herself that the baby goat doesn't require the same pressure as a pissed off nanny or billy goat. Remember, we're talking about the Gsd, not mutt stock dogs. This is the trait which Gustav is talking about being lost in the breed because it's not needed in the venues popularly used for the breed anymore.

joanro said:

 .....it's not needed in the venues popularly used for the breed anymore.


 Voilà 

One of the very interesting discussions on this board - it´s a pity my English isn´t good enough to translate my thoughts...

Discernment - the possibility of the dog to make a decision by itself - self thinking ?

But the behavior of any dog is always a combination out of genetic traits - instincts and intelligence combined with drives, last but not least influenced by environment, almost impossible to measure.
For sure too much drive in any direction does suppress the ability to make a decision based on " self-thinking". .

• Sport dogs - a lot of them are bred for prey drive first and foremost ( and I do include the German showlines here )
• Protection dogs - a lot of them are bred for defense and aggression
• A lot of dogs raised in kennels, not able to see more than the trainingfield or the showground - no intellectual input at all
• The training methods well structured, almost no new experiences for the dogs

Do these drives only suppress any discernment or do we loose a lot of genetic diversity with this kind of selection?

Abe Lincoln ''You can fool some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all of the people all of the time''  B Obama '' may I have my chance?''   your parents '' Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me'' [sorry for the middle statement it is only poop stirring. some people make a living from it. I just can not resist.] I am going to say that in my time in the breed, which began at the conclusion of the Vietnam war, the breed has gotten better. My evidence is from  seeing better and better sport, and more sophisticated police and military training. I can not prove it with any hard evidence. If the dogs were better just before my time where is their legacy? Improvements or the destruction of the breed did not happen in one generation.  Is perception more to blame than a breed attribute like ''discretion'' for this difference in today's dogs compared to yesterday's ?  The legacy is out there and everyone should be proud of their contributions. I believe their is a strong foundation of functioning breed characteristics in the German Shepherd dog which continue to flourish and can be promoted to benefit mankind. The percentage needs to be better. This is the responsibility of every GSD enthusast around the globe.

Susie, my thoughts would be both. A dog is not going to get the chance to use its discernment if it only ever sees its kennel and the trial field. And selecting tor only certain characteristics is going to narrow the gene pools, especially if heavy line breeding is used.

My most recent rescue is a good example of breeding only for prey (ball) drive. She has no protective instincts at all (loves EVERYONE she meets) though she does bark at strangers she sees on the property. But her prey drive is SO strong, she goes after anything that moves. That includes small animals, other dogs and children. It's a real safety concern, and I don't know if I can 'train it out of her' well enough to trial her safely. She's definitely got the right stuff for schutzhund, though.

Oh, and she's a German show line.

SS, what you are describing is precisely what Gustav is referring to. Your rescue dog, which you said was bred ONLY for ball drive, and goes after everything that moves, and is not protective.......LACK of DISCERNMENT, because of lack of balance due to genetics.
Probably without realizing it, you gave a perfect example of what Gustav is talking about.
BTW, why do you think she has the right stuff for schH? If she is as unsound as you describe, then she does not have the right stuff for anything I can think of.
But I agree with you, that selecting for one trait without consideration for the whole dog has crated your problem dog. Also, if dogs never see anything but a training field and kennel, there's no way to know their true character.