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by Sunsilver on 23 June 2012 - 16:06
I do not support or agree with buying from a BYB and think the OP would be much better off going with a smaller scale good breeder.
IMO, that's EXACTLY what he's doing! BYBs do NOT OFA hips and elbows, nor do they bother to sell their dogs with limited registration, nor do they give two hoots who they breed their studs to!
IMO, that's EXACTLY what he's doing! BYBs do NOT OFA hips and elbows, nor do they bother to sell their dogs with limited registration, nor do they give two hoots who they breed their studs to!
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 17:06
"Demise of the German Shepherd Dog? Mike did his homework, he trusted some high advertised breeder, and he has a dead dog, tons of Vet bills for the two dogs he bought, and a broken heart! Unlike some of the breeders that tattoo, chip, show, trial, use magic markers and red shampoo, the breeder he chose for his new puppy, is just a plain family hobby breeder with no marks against them, that love GSD's. That's his right, and as I said, like glue, beat the guy up because he didn't pay $800, $1,500 $2,600 and up yet again, to some star spangled kennel, and slammed because he didn't take advice from the know it all's, and spin the dice again, like a box a chocolates someone said, right? As the GSD dog world turns, everyone on this thread know's the truth now!"
Yeah, I'm not defending the "star spangled kennels" and their over-priced dogs but I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one. I know plenty of hobby breeders who work their asses off training and trialing their dogs and put tens of thousands of miles on their vehicles to drag them halfway across the country to put them in a show that they could only hope to win against virtually insurmountable odds. They sell their dogs in the same price range as this "kennel" and typically operate at a loss. They do so because they truly care for the breed and adherence to the standard is the right thing to do. Those people's efforts should be rewarded; they've earned it. Patchwork is breeding dogs for one reason...income.
Yeah, I'm not defending the "star spangled kennels" and their over-priced dogs but I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one. I know plenty of hobby breeders who work their asses off training and trialing their dogs and put tens of thousands of miles on their vehicles to drag them halfway across the country to put them in a show that they could only hope to win against virtually insurmountable odds. They sell their dogs in the same price range as this "kennel" and typically operate at a loss. They do so because they truly care for the breed and adherence to the standard is the right thing to do. Those people's efforts should be rewarded; they've earned it. Patchwork is breeding dogs for one reason...income.
by Sunsilver on 23 June 2012 - 17:06
And I'm calling 'bullshit' back at you. How could a kennel that does not stud its dogs out, and sells all its pups (with very rare exceptions) on limited registration, be in it for the MONEY??
Most of the big name kennels make their money on the stud fees as it's easier and less expensive than caring for pups and breeding females.
Really, does schutzhund or ring sport have to be the ONLY measuring stick used to evaluate the GSD? These dogs are worked in herding, agility and obedience, and some are obviously being prepared to be therapy dogs. How do YOU know how many hours the owners spend training and titleing these dogs?
Most of the big name kennels make their money on the stud fees as it's easier and less expensive than caring for pups and breeding females.
Really, does schutzhund or ring sport have to be the ONLY measuring stick used to evaluate the GSD? These dogs are worked in herding, agility and obedience, and some are obviously being prepared to be therapy dogs. How do YOU know how many hours the owners spend training and titleing these dogs?
by GSDPACK on 23 June 2012 - 17:06
Sunsilver,
all my working line dogs can work and be around kids, people horses and even toddlers.
Each and every one of them has done training up to muzzle work and some serious defense work. The biggest complaint I had about my dogs is that the kids were not able to out them with a toy and were rather pulled around the back yard. Well boohoo!
I hate when people generalize and I don't give a hoot about what dog/line.
Most of the puppies I pick as pet dogs are in families with children.. And guess what, both parents were titled and the price is the SAME! So there are MANY small time breeders who have excellent puppies for sale. I know of three litters out of amazing dogs for the same price and those people work their dogs. they are not BYB with breeding every female they have to every male they have!
So guess what. If OP wants that dog, let him have it but don't you get all pissed when people get offended by buyers buying junk and paying this ridiculous amount for something that is not even considered papered in controlled breeding countries. But in America, we can do whatever the hell we want, justify why we don;t meet the minimum requirements of why we breed a dog that would not pass OFA, a dog that falls apart outside of his back yard, shows aggression towards puppies.. f'ing awesome.
OP I wish you luck, socialize the puppy a LOT, make sure he gets everywhere and take him out and have fun, I am sure he will be fine. Just please remember, people who are against it, have a reason... and I understand why you can't see their point. If you put your heart and soul into breeding and working your dog, you would know why. I just leave it at that. Good luck and congrats.
all my working line dogs can work and be around kids, people horses and even toddlers.
Each and every one of them has done training up to muzzle work and some serious defense work. The biggest complaint I had about my dogs is that the kids were not able to out them with a toy and were rather pulled around the back yard. Well boohoo!
I hate when people generalize and I don't give a hoot about what dog/line.
Most of the puppies I pick as pet dogs are in families with children.. And guess what, both parents were titled and the price is the SAME! So there are MANY small time breeders who have excellent puppies for sale. I know of three litters out of amazing dogs for the same price and those people work their dogs. they are not BYB with breeding every female they have to every male they have!
So guess what. If OP wants that dog, let him have it but don't you get all pissed when people get offended by buyers buying junk and paying this ridiculous amount for something that is not even considered papered in controlled breeding countries. But in America, we can do whatever the hell we want, justify why we don;t meet the minimum requirements of why we breed a dog that would not pass OFA, a dog that falls apart outside of his back yard, shows aggression towards puppies.. f'ing awesome.
OP I wish you luck, socialize the puppy a LOT, make sure he gets everywhere and take him out and have fun, I am sure he will be fine. Just please remember, people who are against it, have a reason... and I understand why you can't see their point. If you put your heart and soul into breeding and working your dog, you would know why. I just leave it at that. Good luck and congrats.
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 17:06
Well, Sunsilver, you're not exactly a champion for the breed anyway; are you?
It's easy to make the claim that you don't stud out your dogs when no one would pay to breed with them anyway. Selling dogs on limited registration doesn't impress me either...so she can breed dogs that don't meet any semblance of the standard for the breed but no one else can? She is essentially preventing her puppy buyers from doing exactly the same thing she is doing. Ironic; huh?
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 17:06
"If you put your heart and soul into breeding and working your dog, you would know why."
I'll go one further...if you'd put your heart, soul, money, time and tears...lot of them...into rescuing, rehabbing and finding homes for just a small percentage of the unwanted dogs out there while the others get marched off to die by the thousands every day in this country, you'd understand why breeders like this might upset someone like me.
I'll go one further...if you'd put your heart, soul, money, time and tears...lot of them...into rescuing, rehabbing and finding homes for just a small percentage of the unwanted dogs out there while the others get marched off to die by the thousands every day in this country, you'd understand why breeders like this might upset someone like me.
by marjorie on 23 June 2012 - 17:06
--- > You are wasting your time contacting GSDCA
Thats for sure- contacting the GSDCA Ethics Committee??? LMAO! They did nothing when I reported a well known breeder who beat their dog at an AKC show event (providing notarized witness statements), after the dog lost, and also provided documented proof of other abuse. They are a disgraceful organization. See no evil, speak no evil hear no evil. Shame of them- God help the breed if they are supposed to be the caretakers of the breed. All they do when confronted is to circle the wagons and accuse people of witch hunts. They wouldnt know the meaning of the word truth if it bit them in the ass-their actions speak louder than their words- how could they truly care about the breed if they dont care when there is abuse reported?
I am so very sorry for your loss :(
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate
Thats for sure- contacting the GSDCA Ethics Committee??? LMAO! They did nothing when I reported a well known breeder who beat their dog at an AKC show event (providing notarized witness statements), after the dog lost, and also provided documented proof of other abuse. They are a disgraceful organization. See no evil, speak no evil hear no evil. Shame of them- God help the breed if they are supposed to be the caretakers of the breed. All they do when confronted is to circle the wagons and accuse people of witch hunts. They wouldnt know the meaning of the word truth if it bit them in the ass-their actions speak louder than their words- how could they truly care about the breed if they dont care when there is abuse reported?
I am so very sorry for your loss :(
Marjorie
http://www.gsdbbr.org The German Shepherd Dog Breed Betterment Registry
BE PROACTIVE!
http://mzjf.com --> The Degenerative Myelopathy Support Group http://www.mzjf.info/hgate Heaven's Gate
by GSD DEFENDER on 23 June 2012 - 17:06
I answered a rescue ad one time, German Shepherd will die at 5:00 PM, it was 3:45 when I called the rescuer, I had the phone slammed in my face because my other dog was not neutered!!! I was willing to take the dog but I was not good enough because I didn't neuter my other dog!!! So no wonder the pounds are full, 19 pages pages of paperwork, several home INSPECTIONS when after all the dog is going to die if someone doesn't interviene, but if you are not perfect person?!?!?!?!?
by Keith Grossman on 23 June 2012 - 18:06
Yes, some rescues can be a bit rabid but many others are not.
by RLHAR on 23 June 2012 - 18:06
To the OP. I am so sorry about the loss of Milo and the devestation of that sudden loss to your family. I hope you enjoy your new puppy and that he becomes everything you want in a family companion.
Something else in this thread caught my attention and I just feel the need to speak to it.
With all due respect SunSilver, you keep going on about a dog biting a sleeve. Perhaps I am naive but when I watch a protection routine, when I see it trained and when I train my own dogs in it, I do not see it as a 'dog biting a sleeve.'
I see it as the pentultimate test and chance to see the expression of my dog's bidibility, obedience and most of all their temperment, nerves and reactive responses in pressure situations.
Sure some dogs are considered over the top and many reward this for how it looks out on the sport field in front of the judge, I won't discount that but at the same time I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Seeing a dog work in SchH bitework tells me a lot about his/her temperment, their threshold for stressful situations, their nerves and their minds. There is a purpose to 'biting the sleeve' in evaluating breeding potential for a dog, in evaluating what the dog's over all temperment is like, not just whether or not he'll bite the sleeve and it is the dog's overall temperment that will bleed into all other jobs and purposes a GSD may be used for, whether it is herding, therapy, police K9, family companion.
Personally I would not trust the temperment of a breeding pair where I could not see their working ability in a pressured situation like Phase C of SchH or Ringsport. I do not believe you get a true picture of a dog's temperment without that componant. I'm not even talking about the constant question, would my SchH trained dog defend me from a break in. I am talking about the day to day living with a dog. Taking the dog to the vet, having a strange child walk up to my dog, having a woman stand on my dog's tail in a crowd (had that happen last year in fact), all sorts of simple stressful situations for just our companion dogs. I like knowing that when put in those stressful positions, my dog has a clear head and I know what their threshhold for reaction is and that is all stemming from training in bitework.
So I guess it is just a pet peeve of mine to see people toss around 'bite work' as if its nothing more than a dog 'biting a sleeve.'
Something else in this thread caught my attention and I just feel the need to speak to it.
With all due respect SunSilver, you keep going on about a dog biting a sleeve. Perhaps I am naive but when I watch a protection routine, when I see it trained and when I train my own dogs in it, I do not see it as a 'dog biting a sleeve.'
I see it as the pentultimate test and chance to see the expression of my dog's bidibility, obedience and most of all their temperment, nerves and reactive responses in pressure situations.
Sure some dogs are considered over the top and many reward this for how it looks out on the sport field in front of the judge, I won't discount that but at the same time I am not ready to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Seeing a dog work in SchH bitework tells me a lot about his/her temperment, their threshold for stressful situations, their nerves and their minds. There is a purpose to 'biting the sleeve' in evaluating breeding potential for a dog, in evaluating what the dog's over all temperment is like, not just whether or not he'll bite the sleeve and it is the dog's overall temperment that will bleed into all other jobs and purposes a GSD may be used for, whether it is herding, therapy, police K9, family companion.
Personally I would not trust the temperment of a breeding pair where I could not see their working ability in a pressured situation like Phase C of SchH or Ringsport. I do not believe you get a true picture of a dog's temperment without that componant. I'm not even talking about the constant question, would my SchH trained dog defend me from a break in. I am talking about the day to day living with a dog. Taking the dog to the vet, having a strange child walk up to my dog, having a woman stand on my dog's tail in a crowd (had that happen last year in fact), all sorts of simple stressful situations for just our companion dogs. I like knowing that when put in those stressful positions, my dog has a clear head and I know what their threshhold for reaction is and that is all stemming from training in bitework.
So I guess it is just a pet peeve of mine to see people toss around 'bite work' as if its nothing more than a dog 'biting a sleeve.'
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