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by Blitzen on 21 February 2012 - 18:02
Felloffher, the dog they used was an extreme example of a very poor quality GSL. Very few I know would ever enter a dog that bad in a show. The WL looks like a fairly good representative of those lines. Why didn't they use a poor quality WL dog so the comparison was fair and accurate. That's like comparing Heidi Klum's feminine traits to those of Whoopy Goldberg.
What do you mean by "champions"?
by Felloffher on 21 February 2012 - 19:02
Wrong video, I thought you were commenting on the Changes in the GSD video. Sorry.
by Blitzen on 21 February 2012 - 19:02
Well, I could have made that clearer, couldn't I? The other videos are really good, that one not so much.
by gharsha on 21 February 2012 - 19:02
Excellent thread Gustav.
I feel like I can distinguish from the replies who has studied v. Stephanitz's literary work.
He did memorialize his goals in Word & Picture.
I feel like I can distinguish from the replies who has studied v. Stephanitz's literary work.
He did memorialize his goals in Word & Picture.
by Preston on 22 February 2012 - 01:02
I once had an interesting discussion with a friend of mine who has been involved in the GSD breed for over 40 years. His view is that the too many of current crop of black and red tops SV GSDs are like the hollywood starlets. Too much curbside beauty and too little character and temperament under the exterior. GSD enthusiasts can easily get "seduced" by the raw beauty and synnergy of these near perfectly conformed GSDs which just happen to have stunning red and deep black pigment. I know because it has happened to me. And it can happen to anyone. I admit it, I was a sucker one for a high priced "showdog", a most stunning GSD which turned out to be very deficient in temperament and health. Some carry far too many problems genetically and various deficiencies of working temperament. But not all, because there are always some which are themselves exceptional in all manner and can and will produce healthy progeny with good temperament. These dogs are more frequent in the Landsgruppen shows where one can find less conformity to the current cookie cutter type, but nonetheless great GSDs in everyway and some better than any cookie cutter type. I think there are about 1200 SV clubs in Germany and many more in other European countries. Just about any type of GSD preferred is available and many are well within a reasonabble range of the standard, some with even better conformation than what you might find at the Siegerschau.
There are many great breeders that are responsible and ethical and sell quality GSDs that do not conform exactly to the cookie cutter type, but are nonetheless very close to the standard and all around magnificent specimens. Many of these GSDs make wonderful 24/7 in home family pets and protectors. There are many excellent SV GSD breeders in the USA and all around the world that produce very worthy GSDs also. One just must do the necessary research and be willing to travel to find these kennels. Often one must put a down payment on a puppy and wait in order to get one from these excellent breeders because their puppies are in demand.
The problem is not with the SV and nothing can be done to legislate quick fixes for the GSD breed. The problem lies in the hearts and minds of the owners, buyers, breeders, and judges and change must occur within first, after honest evaluations are made of the breeds top blood lines and top winning GSDs. Actually if one looks at the whole picture, the SV has done a great job overall. How can I suggest this when there seems to be significant problems in the breed? It's easy because there are so many SV GSD breed clubs and breeders it is more possible than ever to find the GSD one really prefers IF, one takes the time to properly research breeders and dogs and is willing to save money to finance a purchase of a qulaity animal from a quality, ethical breeder. I say hat's off to the SV and a big thank you for so many years of good service. The great GSDs are still here and they are available if one really looks for them and does proper reserach. Without the SV system, there would be very few good ones available at all, IMO. Let's not bite the hand that feeds us.
There are many great breeders that are responsible and ethical and sell quality GSDs that do not conform exactly to the cookie cutter type, but are nonetheless very close to the standard and all around magnificent specimens. Many of these GSDs make wonderful 24/7 in home family pets and protectors. There are many excellent SV GSD breeders in the USA and all around the world that produce very worthy GSDs also. One just must do the necessary research and be willing to travel to find these kennels. Often one must put a down payment on a puppy and wait in order to get one from these excellent breeders because their puppies are in demand.
The problem is not with the SV and nothing can be done to legislate quick fixes for the GSD breed. The problem lies in the hearts and minds of the owners, buyers, breeders, and judges and change must occur within first, after honest evaluations are made of the breeds top blood lines and top winning GSDs. Actually if one looks at the whole picture, the SV has done a great job overall. How can I suggest this when there seems to be significant problems in the breed? It's easy because there are so many SV GSD breed clubs and breeders it is more possible than ever to find the GSD one really prefers IF, one takes the time to properly research breeders and dogs and is willing to save money to finance a purchase of a qulaity animal from a quality, ethical breeder. I say hat's off to the SV and a big thank you for so many years of good service. The great GSDs are still here and they are available if one really looks for them and does proper reserach. Without the SV system, there would be very few good ones available at all, IMO. Let's not bite the hand that feeds us.
by Preston on 22 February 2012 - 01:02
Here is my view of the best conformed SV GSD ever bred in the history of the breed as far as conformation, Lex di val Sole, son of the legendary Quanto. By the way he did have great working temperament. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=1744
For whatever reasons he was not the producer of his less perfectly conformed brother Lasso di val Sole. But notice his perfect short back, short loin, correct front, small rear hocks, correct angles, proper wither, fantastic male head. He had deep black pigment and was an impressive GSD in every way. If you use him as the blueprint for the ideal type that the FICA/SV standard specifies, you will be on the mark. Many top VA zuchtschau choices have been selected which do not even come close to this type of conformation, especially lately with so many roach backs, dogs that roll up in the rump somewhat or fall off in the front unless they are on a tight lead and pulling hard.
The correct short straight back is the hardest thing to breed successfully.
Here is the good news. there actually are GSDs that share this wonderful type being bred and shown in the many small cluds in Europe and Germany which are shown in Landsgruppen shows. They are not black and red, but are stunning in curbside appeal and tend to be near perfect in conformation. Some have perfect short backs and great working temperament. It's all available in Europe and Germany and many other countries worldwide if one does the necessary homework and research.
For whatever reasons he was not the producer of his less perfectly conformed brother Lasso di val Sole. But notice his perfect short back, short loin, correct front, small rear hocks, correct angles, proper wither, fantastic male head. He had deep black pigment and was an impressive GSD in every way. If you use him as the blueprint for the ideal type that the FICA/SV standard specifies, you will be on the mark. Many top VA zuchtschau choices have been selected which do not even come close to this type of conformation, especially lately with so many roach backs, dogs that roll up in the rump somewhat or fall off in the front unless they are on a tight lead and pulling hard.
The correct short straight back is the hardest thing to breed successfully.
Here is the good news. there actually are GSDs that share this wonderful type being bred and shown in the many small cluds in Europe and Germany which are shown in Landsgruppen shows. They are not black and red, but are stunning in curbside appeal and tend to be near perfect in conformation. Some have perfect short backs and great working temperament. It's all available in Europe and Germany and many other countries worldwide if one does the necessary homework and research.
by Chaz Reinhold on 22 February 2012 - 05:02
Well said, Preston. They are out there. Do your homework and you can find them. Problem is, some people have a different vision of what a gsd should be.
by darylehret on 22 February 2012 - 14:02
Do your homework to find out which ones were fairly admitted into the SV system and which ones passed when someone looked the other way? Not supposed to work that way.
The pretense is that the SV endorses these dogs as representatives of the breed. If you can't rely on the organization's stewardship of the breed, what other purpose do they serve except to collect fees for registrations and sanctioned events, just like the AKC?
I agree, we have some different visions, but when they fall within the parameters of the breed standard, that's OK. The SV shouldn't be putting it's stamp to the specimens that DON'T. It defeats what should be their primary purpose, makes them an unreliable 'stamp of quality', no different than the USA's AKC.
The pretense is that the SV endorses these dogs as representatives of the breed. If you can't rely on the organization's stewardship of the breed, what other purpose do they serve except to collect fees for registrations and sanctioned events, just like the AKC?
I agree, we have some different visions, but when they fall within the parameters of the breed standard, that's OK. The SV shouldn't be putting it's stamp to the specimens that DON'T. It defeats what should be their primary purpose, makes them an unreliable 'stamp of quality', no different than the USA's AKC.
by joanro on 22 February 2012 - 16:02
AKC doesn't do anything or claim to do anything other than register breeds of dogs and the the accuracy is only as good as the person registering the dog. The way of the breed is on the judges putting dogs up in the show ring.
by Char Pazin on 23 February 2012 - 01:02
Well if the Captain was alive he would love my dog Garris Arminius Von Chaos Garris stands out in the crowd is a eye catcher just stunning he is like Horand von Grafrath.
A wolflike dog with speckled yellow and gray fur, a powerful gaze, and a strong demeanor that bore traces of the primal animal within. The dog was intelligent
Garris does look like a wolf sure looks like Horrrand to me what do you all think?
Char
A wolflike dog with speckled yellow and gray fur, a powerful gaze, and a strong demeanor that bore traces of the primal animal within. The dog was intelligent
Garris does look like a wolf sure looks like Horrrand to me what do you all think?
Char
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