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by Penny on 12 December 2010 - 17:12
have said nothing on this thread until now.
The reason being is that I have heard all Shirley has found, on the subject and she has been much more pro-active with this than me, as at first, I thought the same as David and a few others here, that it was a minor rare problem - However, having heard the pros and cons from Shirley.... it sadly is more common than we thought . Its not a crime - people dont need to be quiet about it, as no one ever aims to breed a problem in a puppy, but life happens.
However, in her quest to find out all about it, and whether she should involve herself in testing, it has become apparent that it is in fact a problem, and also apparent that it is an easy problem to quell. That is the very important point that she is making it seems.
I have a little dog at present that should he still be as promising as he is now, will be tested at 6 months. If he is a carrier, I will say so, and hope that everyone is enlightened enough to know that if he is good enough, he will be at stud to clear females.
I shall test my females, and hope to use a clear male if they are carriers, or if they are clear, I shall be over the moon, and use whichever stud dog I please. It really is as simple as that isnt it.?
David, I can only say that everyone thought JRD wasnt existent but you stood your ground on the matter, so whats different about PD.
If testing only stops the heartache of a few, , it has got to be for the betterment of the breed and testing to find a carrier does not stop any breeding programme, it just makes you aware that you have to be a bit more selective, breeding puppies should be very selective, and the reason we are all so very passionate about this breed is that we wish to improve the qualities and reduce the chances surely.
If my little dog is good enough as he progresses into adulthood, sure it will be a dissappointment for me if he is tested positive, but it would be more of a dissapointment to go and see litters by him that some-one has set their aim on, to find puppies suffering PD. What will it mean in real terms if my puppy is a carrier - it means I will carry on in my normal way with him, and fewer people will be able to use him if they chose to - but it will mean peace of mind. What will be the consequences of finding a female positive test? Being a bit more selective about the males used, sad, but more positive for the outcome of the puppies - where is the problem in that? knowing that if it carries on being tested for, it will be eradicated by virtue of good breeding programmes Mo.
by Penny on 12 December 2010 - 17:12
Oh by the way - I am sure that stud dog owners can see the inevitable happening......
"Such and Such a dog is a PD Carrier" pass the info on, lets reduce his use.....-
what can the stud dog owner say at this present moment re that attitude?
"Yes thats right, go away if you dont want to test your female, and use a stud dog that isnt tested, then you will be safe....... Yeah, right.
I think NOT. Mo.
"Such and Such a dog is a PD Carrier" pass the info on, lets reduce his use.....-
what can the stud dog owner say at this present moment re that attitude?
"Yes thats right, go away if you dont want to test your female, and use a stud dog that isnt tested, then you will be safe....... Yeah, right.
I think NOT. Mo.
by noddi on 12 December 2010 - 17:12
thank you very much mo for coming on here and saying your piece on this subject.us mere mortals on here have been brow beaten on here and ridiculed ,just for agreeing with the original poster.No one has been stating that carrier males/females be disregarded in ppl.s breeding programmes.as yu stated if one has a carrier then yu have to mate ones female to a clear stud and vice versus.where is the shame/witch hunt in that.some breeders tend to think that us minnows do not hear of problems with some animals,beware the jungle grapevine is well informed,more than yu think.there are plenty ppl.on this forum who find out,shall i say the dirt on some of the top breeders.i for one am not that clever on computers,but have been amazed at wot i,ve read on some of these threads re genetic problems and the unknown attitude of some breeders who frankly should know better.i,m seriously thinking now that maybe i,ll be better off not bothering buying another gsd.Carole S.
by Mark3 on 12 December 2010 - 23:12
I was surprised at Wildmoor’s post that there was an AF test as I understood it was still being researched so I had a closer look. From what I can see, it’s based on the balance of probabilities. The risk of AF is 5 times higher if the dog carries the DRB*00101 allele but it’s likely that other unknown genes are involved so even if a dog carries the risk allele, it will not necessarily get the disease. Further, some dogs that do not carry the risk allele have AF.
It doesn’t really tell us very much; just if the dog has the risk gene and that still doesn’t prove they won’t get or pass on AF. Surely breeders would want a better test than this; at least with the PD test, they are either clear or carrier status.
BTW, same here Carole, we just lost our 13 ½ year old and were thinking of getting another later on down the line when we’ve come to terms with her loss but the views on health testing from some quarters who should know better is putting us off. The jungle grapevine is indeed well informed!
It doesn’t really tell us very much; just if the dog has the risk gene and that still doesn’t prove they won’t get or pass on AF. Surely breeders would want a better test than this; at least with the PD test, they are either clear or carrier status.
BTW, same here Carole, we just lost our 13 ½ year old and were thinking of getting another later on down the line when we’ve come to terms with her loss but the views on health testing from some quarters who should know better is putting us off. The jungle grapevine is indeed well informed!
by Sue B on 13 December 2010 - 00:12
Knowledgeable people are seldom influenced by scare mongering tactics. The way this thread has been
projected one would think we are in the midst of Pandemic proportions of PD. Next they will be trying to convince us it is probable that the majority of GSD;s with character problems are PD carriers!!
As an easily detectable condition whilst pup still in the nest, PD is therefore a 'Breeder Loss' condition. In these situations common sense predicts the problem will never reach epidemic, never mind Pandemic proportions because providing the buyer goes to an experienced, reputable breeder, any PD pup that survives, would never be passed on to any puppy purchaser.
Subsequently before breeders start spending thousands of pounds testing everything, when in
fact the test for the majority is more likely to be proved unnecessary, than necessary, I suggest they only use 'Tested Males' on PROVEN carrier females (i.e where Proven = a female having already produced a Dwarf). Anytime a Dwarf is produced the breeder should inform the owner of the stud dog and then the rest of the GSD community of the identity of any sire they used that produced a dwarf, including of course the identity of their own female (i.e the dam of the dwarf).
The onus would then be on the owner of the untested stud dog to prove otherwise. As there is a test to
identify this gene the Whistle Blowers will need to be sure they have their facts right otherwise you will be
easily discredited should the sire receive a negative result. This at least stops people trying to make mischief or come out with false statements as to the identity and breeding of said Dwarfs.
What I have described above is not only the simplest but also the most sensible as well as cost effective way of controlling this condition.
Personally if I had ever produced a Dwarf I would only breed from that female again if I HAD TO (i.e the line would be lost as I had no alternative female to breed from), and in those circumstances I would ONLY mate her to a Tested Male. If the male I considered as the best mate for her was not tested, I would even offer to pay for the test myself , providing of course the owner was willing to have him tested, but if not then I would look for another suitable male until I found one that was tested or whose owner was prepared to submit for testing.
The solution to this problem is far too simple for those who appear to get some weird type of enjoyment out of coming on here to breeder bash, rake up mud and sling it, and of course simple, sensible solutions are definitely not entertaining enough for the Horror Movie Brigade and their relentless Scare Mongering.
Chrissy,
No need for an apology, at least not to me. As for me making mistakes, I am sure I may well have made some, just as I am you would have being more than happy to point any out to me that you noticed. The difference is that I have NEVER , EVER come on this database purposely to name or malign someone else's dog or breeding.!!!! Nor have I ever started a thread purposely to bash or slag someone off. Yes I have come on many times to defend those who are being bashed and slagged on here by others, more especially when the mud is being thrown by anonymous morons.
Regards
Sue b
by Abby Normal on 13 December 2010 - 11:12
Mark3
I didn't know the status of the AF test, so thanks for that info.
Mo
No one has put it any better.
SueB
A 'breeder loss' condition.
Can be an owner heartache condition for those who do (even from knowledgeable and reputable breeders) find themselves an owner of a dwarf, and all the heartache (and financial cost) that will bring, not just to the owner, but severe health issues for the dog. A loss condition that can be passed on to someone potentially buying a pup for breeding that then goes on to produce dwarfs/fading/stillborn puppies.
And finally, and what about the pups of 6 weeks old that have to be destroyed? Why would a breeder produce a life and be quite prepared to destroy that life when it has barely begun. I find that abhorrent. Not when it can now easily be avoided.
Genetecists say, this condition can be very simply eradicated over quite a short term. I don't understand why breeders would not want to take the initiative to make this happen.
I didn't know the status of the AF test, so thanks for that info.
Mo
No one has put it any better.
SueB
A 'breeder loss' condition.
Can be an owner heartache condition for those who do (even from knowledgeable and reputable breeders) find themselves an owner of a dwarf, and all the heartache (and financial cost) that will bring, not just to the owner, but severe health issues for the dog. A loss condition that can be passed on to someone potentially buying a pup for breeding that then goes on to produce dwarfs/fading/stillborn puppies.
And finally, and what about the pups of 6 weeks old that have to be destroyed? Why would a breeder produce a life and be quite prepared to destroy that life when it has barely begun. I find that abhorrent. Not when it can now easily be avoided.
Genetecists say, this condition can be very simply eradicated over quite a short term. I don't understand why breeders would not want to take the initiative to make this happen.
by noddi on 13 December 2010 - 11:12
Morning Sue.hope yu are keeping well.In an ideal world wot yu have outline is fine BUT THIS IS NOT AN IDEAL WORLD IS IT?.We have loads of unscrupulous BYB. who just luv to make loads of dosh.hows this scenario,and yes it could come true,as its based on actual facts that have been told to me.A breeder has 1 dwarf in a litter,decides to have said pup PTS but some kind hearted person who is well versed in ALL GENETIC DEFECTS IN THE GSD ,tells said breeder that they will have pup and give it a chance on life.on socialising said pup is continually being asked by joe public if they can buy it or where can they buy a dwarf gsd,as they,ve always wanted a gsd but havent the space /time for a proper one but a dwarf gsd would fit in.here we have a situation where the unscrupulous breeders come in.DWARF GSD FOR SALE....RARE...PRICE??????????????????WHERE WILL IT ALL END?Carole S.
by Sue B on 13 December 2010 - 13:12
Hi Carol (noddi), Jim and I are both well thankyou. Hope the same for you and that you are ready for the festive season.
Oh how I love the idea of an ideal world, and how I agree with you that this isnt one and sadly never
will be. Unfortunately Carol there will always be the unscrupulous breeders ready to cash in by breeding anything they can refer to as rare and no amount of testing done by reputable breeders will ever stop the type that you refer to. Indeed, what is even more frightening about the senario you describe is the fact that testing serves to further identify the very dogs/bitches these unscrupulous people need in order to produce more dwarfs at will. Just another example of how the 'good' in this world can also be used for 'evil'.
Carol you know me well enough to know I'm a straight talker, as a result of which I am also a realist. I am not an Abby Norm who comes on here with doom and gloom but with the promise of salvation if you all do what she says. An entity that never offers up any credentials that we can all judge for ourselves. How do we know she practices what she preaches? How do we know she is a she and not a he, we presume a she because of the name Abby, but presumption is not proof.
Carol have you never wondered why Abby has never replied to the questions asked by various people about what credentials she has in the German Shepherd? I have said above that if I ever produced a Dwarf I would never breed from that female again unless it was to a tested male. Now that should be good enough, I am an actual known breeder, using my actual known name on here, making an actual public statement about my future intentions. That is certainly a darn sight more than Abnorm has ever done on here, she can prove nothing about anything she says because no-one knows who she/he is and so Carole for all we know, this Abby could actually be one of those unscrupulous breeders that turns Good into Evil !! For all we know she/he might be one of the very breeders your senario talked about and the only reason she is on this thread is to identify as many dwarf carryiers as necessary in order to produce them for the owners you say exist that would buy one.!! You and no doubt Abby will say she is not but again I ask you, "How do you know? Show me proof?"
As you know I often use German males, do you think any of the Germans will be testing their stud dogs? If I produce a dwarf when using a German dog then I have proved two things:- i.e that my female and the dog I used are both carriers and I would make that known. Now that is meaningful information of the type that Scientists like Malcolm Willis would approve of, and the type of information that the likes of annonymous entities like Abby No could never provide to the GSD World. Not unless that is this unknown entity convinces the whole of the GSD world to do the test, which we all know will never happen.
As stated early I said I would test when I found it necessary to do so. Barbara (missbeeb) has already said on here she will be testing Jimmy who is owned jointly with me and the ONLY dog I currently have standing at stud. Once he is tested both Barbara and I will be sure that whoever uses him will not be creating a dwarf to pass onto anyone else and that is as much as we can do, but was that enough to satisfy this annonymous entity AbNo? Of course not, back she/he/it came for yet another breeder bashing session using me as her punch bag. As someone else so elequently put it earlier on this thread, its people like her that get reputable breeders backs up and piss them off.
CONT'D BELOW
Oh how I love the idea of an ideal world, and how I agree with you that this isnt one and sadly never
will be. Unfortunately Carol there will always be the unscrupulous breeders ready to cash in by breeding anything they can refer to as rare and no amount of testing done by reputable breeders will ever stop the type that you refer to. Indeed, what is even more frightening about the senario you describe is the fact that testing serves to further identify the very dogs/bitches these unscrupulous people need in order to produce more dwarfs at will. Just another example of how the 'good' in this world can also be used for 'evil'.
Carol you know me well enough to know I'm a straight talker, as a result of which I am also a realist. I am not an Abby Norm who comes on here with doom and gloom but with the promise of salvation if you all do what she says. An entity that never offers up any credentials that we can all judge for ourselves. How do we know she practices what she preaches? How do we know she is a she and not a he, we presume a she because of the name Abby, but presumption is not proof.
Carol have you never wondered why Abby has never replied to the questions asked by various people about what credentials she has in the German Shepherd? I have said above that if I ever produced a Dwarf I would never breed from that female again unless it was to a tested male. Now that should be good enough, I am an actual known breeder, using my actual known name on here, making an actual public statement about my future intentions. That is certainly a darn sight more than Abnorm has ever done on here, she can prove nothing about anything she says because no-one knows who she/he is and so Carole for all we know, this Abby could actually be one of those unscrupulous breeders that turns Good into Evil !! For all we know she/he might be one of the very breeders your senario talked about and the only reason she is on this thread is to identify as many dwarf carryiers as necessary in order to produce them for the owners you say exist that would buy one.!! You and no doubt Abby will say she is not but again I ask you, "How do you know? Show me proof?"
As you know I often use German males, do you think any of the Germans will be testing their stud dogs? If I produce a dwarf when using a German dog then I have proved two things:- i.e that my female and the dog I used are both carriers and I would make that known. Now that is meaningful information of the type that Scientists like Malcolm Willis would approve of, and the type of information that the likes of annonymous entities like Abby No could never provide to the GSD World. Not unless that is this unknown entity convinces the whole of the GSD world to do the test, which we all know will never happen.
As stated early I said I would test when I found it necessary to do so. Barbara (missbeeb) has already said on here she will be testing Jimmy who is owned jointly with me and the ONLY dog I currently have standing at stud. Once he is tested both Barbara and I will be sure that whoever uses him will not be creating a dwarf to pass onto anyone else and that is as much as we can do, but was that enough to satisfy this annonymous entity AbNo? Of course not, back she/he/it came for yet another breeder bashing session using me as her punch bag. As someone else so elequently put it earlier on this thread, its people like her that get reputable breeders backs up and piss them off.
CONT'D BELOW
by Sue B on 13 December 2010 - 13:12
So Carole, if you actually believe the picture this Abby attempts to paint of me to be true, then you are not the person I thought I knew and had known me all these years. If however you still believe, as I always thought you did, that I only ever have the best interests of this breed at heart , then you must see that this anonymous entity, no credential Abby, is not only breeder bashing on this public forum but now purposely targeting me as her Punch Bag, without justification.
So come on Carole, which description of me do you actually believe, the proof of what I have done and produced over the years you have known me or the one created in the abnormal world of Abby? The choice is yours.
Best Regards
Sue b
So come on Carole, which description of me do you actually believe, the proof of what I have done and produced over the years you have known me or the one created in the abnormal world of Abby? The choice is yours.
Best Regards
Sue b
by Abby Normal on 13 December 2010 - 16:12
SueB
back she/he/it came for yet another breeder bashing session using me as her punch bag.
You are really baffling me now. Using you as a punchbag? Is that how you define anyone responding to a post (but challenging a statement made in it) ?
So Carole, if you actually believe the picture this Abby attempts to paint of me to be true
What picture am I attempting to paint of you?
this is not about you, and never has been. Any picture being painted of you is of your own creation and not mine. You are making this out to be about you – it isn’t. It is about the GSD breed and health.
That statement is just a little rich, considering how you and MissBeeb and Videx have set out to be as unpleasant as possible, and use me as more than a punchbag. I would classify it more as GBH LOL. In fact you seem to be still trying – ‘yes! I admit it, I am one of those evil people who wants to use the system to identify carriers so I can breed dwarfs and make loads of money ha ha!’ – LOL. For heaven’s sake what planet are you on, or are you just getting desperate in your attempts to discredit me?
I don’t need to present any credentials in respect of this thread, nor in respect of anything that is recorded/proven fact. I may have a Ph.D in animal sciences, but I am not the scientific body making the recommendations, nor am I responsible for developing the test, so that’s all somewhat irrelevant isn't it.
You, MissBeeb and Videx jumped in very heavily on this thread and made derogatory statements relating to various people, even other respected breeders about the use of the test, and have seemingly intentionally fuelled a fire that never existed.
Your switch to the ‘poor me – who do you believe’ approach is really very disconcerting.
What 'picture' that you perceive to have been ‘painted’ of you are you asking Carole not to believe?
As you know I often use German males, do you think any of the Germans will be testing their stud dogs? No, because Germany do not publicly acknowledge the existence of PD. Therefore if you choose not to test your bitches, and those untested bitches are put to untested german males, you cannot be sure whether you are breeding carrier to carrier. If you tested your bitches, you would know. Isn't that really what this test is all about?
BTW apologies to the KC, they do have reference to PD, and the test available from Laboklin, on their GSD health issues page.
back she/he/it came for yet another breeder bashing session using me as her punch bag.
You are really baffling me now. Using you as a punchbag? Is that how you define anyone responding to a post (but challenging a statement made in it) ?
So Carole, if you actually believe the picture this Abby attempts to paint of me to be true
What picture am I attempting to paint of you?
this is not about you, and never has been. Any picture being painted of you is of your own creation and not mine. You are making this out to be about you – it isn’t. It is about the GSD breed and health.
That statement is just a little rich, considering how you and MissBeeb and Videx have set out to be as unpleasant as possible, and use me as more than a punchbag. I would classify it more as GBH LOL. In fact you seem to be still trying – ‘yes! I admit it, I am one of those evil people who wants to use the system to identify carriers so I can breed dwarfs and make loads of money ha ha!’ – LOL. For heaven’s sake what planet are you on, or are you just getting desperate in your attempts to discredit me?
I don’t need to present any credentials in respect of this thread, nor in respect of anything that is recorded/proven fact. I may have a Ph.D in animal sciences, but I am not the scientific body making the recommendations, nor am I responsible for developing the test, so that’s all somewhat irrelevant isn't it.
You, MissBeeb and Videx jumped in very heavily on this thread and made derogatory statements relating to various people, even other respected breeders about the use of the test, and have seemingly intentionally fuelled a fire that never existed.
Your switch to the ‘poor me – who do you believe’ approach is really very disconcerting.
What 'picture' that you perceive to have been ‘painted’ of you are you asking Carole not to believe?
As you know I often use German males, do you think any of the Germans will be testing their stud dogs? No, because Germany do not publicly acknowledge the existence of PD. Therefore if you choose not to test your bitches, and those untested bitches are put to untested german males, you cannot be sure whether you are breeding carrier to carrier. If you tested your bitches, you would know. Isn't that really what this test is all about?
BTW apologies to the KC, they do have reference to PD, and the test available from Laboklin, on their GSD health issues page.
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