Freaks now in the UK

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by VomRuiz on 06 May 2010 - 20:05

double post

by Wildmoor on 06 May 2010 - 22:05

I will start again maybe you can answer these questions raised by me and the others asked by other members here.
Which newest book are you refering to? Which new Book? ISBN number?
Do you not use OFA or PENNHIP ? www.offa.org/results.html
Who takes blood or swabs?

Why as this so called genetic mutation not appeared anywhere else in the world?

You say parents and grparents have been DNA'd the mix could have happened much further back!

Isnt this MITF gene related to deafness in some breeds? when it mutates.

Your words Melissa from a UK GSD forum NOt your website, it is not a misquote but copied and pasted.
My Willy Wonka was done at 18 months and has OFA fair elbows - normal hips (Willy is a LC brother to the male already in the UK). 04-05-2008, 10:23 PM
Join Date: May 2008
Location: North Carolina USA
Posts: 13

Saratoga is maggie or pat???
I have not mentioned husky on here, another one who can not read, re the history you have been informed elsewhere regarding the regional types around pre- the GSD.

Melissa answer my questions and I will answer yours!

by NoCurs on 06 May 2010 - 22:05

There are always those who put $$ over the breed. In EVERY breed. Sad. "Rare" is THE single best signal to RUN from a breeder... in any breed.

The reason they are "rare"... because ethical breeders don't produce them. Sigh.

by Saratoga on 07 May 2010 - 00:05

Wildmoor I can tell you now my name is neither Maggie nor Pat as I am not female
I have however had dealings or shall we say disagreements with you before on a different forum and fully understand that you are in fact standing up for what you believe is correct
However as someone in the world of the beloved GSD and someone who represents the Breed don't you think just maybe you are behaving a little childishly when lowering an argument to such a degree as you have .
I mean Freaks in the UK now
Doesn't really do much for public relations when all the time there is new blood coming into the GAD world now does it
I have never ever seen a post from either of the three ladies in question here that has ever slandered what you do or breed. So my whole argument is what is it that makes you so above everyone else that you think you have the right to try to humiliate a breeder that chooses to breed something different to you you are not special you are not a governing body all by yourself neither has anyone given you the right to be judge and jury over what an individual chooses or does not choose to breed
Should there come a day when the only GSD allowed on the face of the earth is a black & tan not only will that be a sad day for those who like a little diversity from the norm but the day of the beginning of the end of the GSD
Grow up and smell the roses do a little research on animal extinction it can happen a lot quicker than you think up for god sake are you not aware that individual species have a tendency to become extinct if no integration exists this applies to every living thing not just GSD's
You can breed and breed and breed but eventually you will find mother nature will throw a spanner in the works and you end up with an animal you have no idea where it could of come from the same applies to the colour diversities in the GSD
Childish comments serve no purpose other than to make the person who says them look childish so all the silly remarks about Collies and freaks are to no avail these diversities are here to stay like it or not so you do what you do and leave others to do what they do as I said before each to his own and as they will not interfere with your dogs in the ring I cannot see neither harm to you or any other Black & Tan Breeder
Please be sure to apologize to Pat and Maggie and why not also to June who you have also tried to victimize but not had the guts to name not that it bothers any of them anyway you see Pam I am not just someone who came in out of the rain to this site for something to do I just wanted to see if you were the same nasty vindictive person you have always been and I see nothing has changed has it ,I have had enough now its been fun bye bye

by Uber Land on 07 May 2010 - 01:05

for the person who stated that there were not spotted, or white marked dogs used in the makeup of this breed, have you forgotten about the brindles, merles, and yes, white border collie type marking dogs? you can find pictures and references to them in the old breed books, sorry I can't give names or titles for references, maybe someone else here can, but I have definitly read and seen these articles and pictures.

as for the rejection of the blues by AKC and standard change, this is what is said about Ch Hobbin's Gray Boy: Ch. Hoobins Gray Boy wins the breed FIRST TIME OUT at an all breed show. This Startling blue youngster, only 2 years old, finished his title with four MAJORS, shown in the classes only 14 times. Owners Mary and Lee Hoobin and Llano Estacado Kennels. The NOTED All-breed judge Langdon Skarda judged and admired this unusually colored but EXCELLENT dog to the extent that he not only put him to a good win, but also later purchased him and that under Mr. Skarda's ownership, he promptly became a BEST IN SHOW WINNER, confirming well Mr. Skarda's high opinion of his quality.(qoute from The Book of the German Shepherd, written by Anna Katherine Nicholas.)

This dog was in the center of the controversy which made AKC drop the blues and livers from the standard, but until this dog, blue was an acceptable color to be shown. some breeders hated this dog placing above theirs, and pressured the GSDCA to change to standard to only allow for black nose leather (thus permanently ruling out the blues and livers, no matter how dark the nose, it will never be black)

these colors were blamed for the health problems occuring in the breed. We now know thru proper health testing that the problems were not cause by defective, pale colors, but genetics and disease. only problem that affects the dilutes is CDA, which also affects other breeds, and there is a simple genetic test that will identify if a dilute dog is a carrier/affect of CDA. So breeders have a tool to choose which dilute lines will produce this and a reputable breeder will breed only dogs tested as negative for this gene.

there are breeders who work with these colors who do considerable health testing, and temperment testing on their dogs and who do breed dogs who conform to every other aspect of the standard, except for color.

Color should be the least of a breeders worries when you consider we have top VA dogs dieing at 3-4 years old, and all other problems our breed faces. I would prefer to concentrate on health, longevity, temperment, working ability (not just schutzhund potential), and conformation over a dogs color anyday.

by VomMarischal on 07 May 2010 - 01:05

In my opinion, and oh MY the sparks will fly (hehehehe), pet placing, neutered or not, encourages uneducated people to want more of the "rare" thing, so it actually is destructive to the breed. As I said, I euthanized those white puppies. I'm not proud of it, but it was 30 years ago when that was how culling was handled.

I wouldn't do it now, I guess, because it was a horribly difficult thing to do and once is enough...even though I actually believe it should be done. It's an ugly situation, but that's the sort of difficult thing one has to man up and do. Emotional meltdown doesn't help the breed at all.

Hey, you wanna see a GSD with a collie nose? And I do mean COLLIE NOSE? It's one of my fosters. She was so ugly that her breeder dumped her on the streets at 3 months of age. Now THAT is taking personal responsibility....

by Uber Land on 07 May 2010 - 01:05

even though I don't care for K9-Pines breeding practices (lack of health testing) and some of her dogs (some are poor examples of a well bred german shepherd), I will say she knows where all her puppies have been placed, and non have been placed in rescue's or shelters. So I doubt she is the problem when it comes to pet overpopulation in shelters or rescues. infact, how many blue and livers do you see every year in shelters? How many of these dogs are turned out on the streets in the UK?

just because someone chooses to work with non standard (at the moment) colors, does not make them puppymills or uneducated breeders. infact, most of the blue/liver and white breeders I know understand genetics a hell of a lot more than some people on this board. white breeders faced and still face these same views from the blk/red german crowd. but they've slowly gained acceptance from around the world, and its just a matter of time before these other colors do. no matter how much some german style breeders hate them.

by Pridhams on 07 May 2010 - 02:05

Just would like to clear something up... I am the Maggie that Pam (Wildmoor) referred to in her earlier post to Saratoga.
Pat, presumably will be the person who bred the blue dilute that I was delighted to bring home as a companion to join me and my other two GSDs, one of whom is a black/tan, the other a long stock coat solid black.

I've read with great interest the comments posted on this thread, over the last couple of days and I would like to express my gratitude to Saratoga, for being one of the few contributors to this topic who appears to have a well balanced view on this apparently contentious issue.
Thank you for being the still, small voice of calm and reason in this maelstrom of what can best be described as elitist bigotry ( in some cases).

I am currently thrashing this same subject on another forum with Wildmoor, but it's being debated, I hope, in a civilised way, although I don't have the style and grace that Saratoga or Uber Land possess in their text. in my own replies to Wildmoor's obvious distress at the existence and propogation of what she dismisses as Freaks here and on the other forum.

I have nothing to add - except that this blue dilute is an absolute sparkler of a youngster, full of health, and is far better put together than the conventionally colour marked sheps I have at home, both of whom have severe HD.
I don't breed, and I don't chase tickets or titles.

I leave that to people who know what they're doing. I thought it was you people.

But it transpires that many of you feel that this healthy, lively young GSD is an amalgam of Mutant and Freak.
I am sorry you feel that way.
Maggie

by VomMarischal on 07 May 2010 - 03:05

Yeah, I would agree that freak is a rather harsh word for a dog. I sure as hell wouldn't use it, myself.

by bazza on 07 May 2010 - 07:05

Uberland you said "I would prefer to concentrate on health, longevity, temperament, working ability,( not just schutzhund potential) and conformation over a dogs colour any day". I couldn't agree more as long as those colours are within the breed standard. Just a pity the breeder in question does not follow your lead as colour is her main criteria. Also this blue dog you mention above, I NOTE you said an ALL BREED JUDGE at an ALL BREED SHOW gave him this award. He was later purchased by said judge? Self interest comes to mind. All breed judges at all breed shows are notorious for their lack of knowledge on the correct breed standard GSD, was this dog ever presented to a breed specialist? Now that would be interesting. To everyone else here who are so offended, you are entitled to your opinion, and to own whatever colour you like, just do not tell me they are CORRECT TO THE GSD STANDARD, PLEASE. And since this thread was about a dog breeder in the UK importing a dog from K9-pine and their lack of knowledge as to what is correct and what is not, it would be appreciated if she could answer the simple questions put to her. We have all read your excuses for what you do, so lets get to what IS important, results of health tests, breed surveys, work/show achievements, anything? And please do not give me the pet companion line, because in my book, pet, show, work, etc. etc. every dog should be bred from breed health tested/ breed worthy animals, and every owner deserves a dog to have been bred from such.

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