Czech pedigree define??? - Page 10

One of the arguments for what constitutes an all "Czech dog" is that the dog is of the 'classic' Czech dogs, the ones bred specifically to be patrol dogs.
So 'classic' implys something which has stood the test of time and is worthy of preserving, as opposed to 'modern'. OK, I'll go along with some old blood lines standing the test of time and worthy of being preserved. The problem with the pedigrees of most dogs declared to be all classic Czech, is that the greatest majority of dogs in the pedigree which are supposedly being preserved in current breedings, are not Classic Czech dogs at all, but are the west show and west sport competition dogs. Usually a few recent dogs in the pedigree ( which are truly modern because of generations in which they appear) are the ones with zps, Czech registry, etc. So, that begs the question, how are the 'classic Czech dogs' being preserved in a ped when they are nonexistent in any great numbers in 'classic' past. So in reality, 'Classic czech' dogs are actually products of breeding through selection for desirable traits for a goal....that is what breeding should be, but without all the hype and sales pitches of All Czech or Classic Czech Pedigree, when the majority of Classic (= ten plus years ago) dogs in the pedigree are show and sport competition dogs. The quality of a dog should not be determined by country of origin of registration certificate.

Prager, what's your point? Do you think my post which you quoted was false?
You want to make this a discussion about cars? I have driven 1 ton ford diesels, manual transmission, four door, dual wheel for over thirty years...they were the best for hauling twenty four foot goose neck horse trailers all over the country for ten months a year.... I knew they were best for my needs because of personal experience and preference. I never mistook them or imagined I was driving a Ferrari. A Ferrari is worthless to my needs. And I could service my trucks myself, changing the oil and oil filter, fuel and air filters, checking fluid levels, installng news batteries, even changing a tire on when nessesary while on the road...enough to keep my truck serviceable and sound but I never went to Detroit or Topeka, or Canada to a Ford plant to learn how to do the work myself. Same way I know how to evaluate a dog in front of me, and know if a dog produces quality or crap...I never went to England to learn about my Smooth Fox Terriers, and I never have needed to go the Germany to learn about the German Shepherd Dog. A person with an eye and a feel for dogs can evaluate them without having to trek to the countries of origin to know...for some people the workings of a dog is a mystery they can never grasp. Those people probably do need to go talk to the people who invented the breed to have a vocabulary which will cause others to believe the rhetoric.

"I have seen dogs from USA and I would not say that they are Old Style CZ Dogs."

And I have seen Many dogs from Czech that I would not say are Old Style CZ Dogs. Production of crap dogs knows no bounds. This thread was not Old Style Cz Dogs...it is 'Czech pedigree define??? ' I think that encompasses any gsd registered in cz, weather they are SL or Sport or bred for PSD.

"I have said that you do not need to be Czech to produce good dogs. That is given. But that is not the discussion here."

Then why this comment;

"So to say that he, the man from Holland,  has dogs with the most Czech pedigrees of the old style Czech dogs is IMO  not so regardless of the good  quality of dogs he produces."

My response to that ^^ ;

'A person does not have to be a Czech citizen or Czech descendant to recognize the nescessary traits which constitutes a quality working dog such as the gsd. Even some of us Americans know a good dog when we see one and also recognize a crapper when we see one. Breeding and producing quality dogs does not require current or former residence in EU as a prerequisite.'

I see your point. But let me ask you. If Lamborghini uses at least 30% of parts from Audi which is a German manufacturer is Lamborghini still Italian sport car? I will say resounding  yes. Adn I am not the only one.  Most people who fight the  fact  that Czech dogs are different then German or Chinese dogs and claim that it is only  a marketing ploy are often the people who are not producing such dogs and see such dogs as a competition . 

 I am here to maintain that it is not about pedigree but it is about type of the dog. That is why I can approach total stranger on a street and comment on their nice "Old style Czech Dog" and they will answer. How did you know the dog came from Czech. And I say- gray hair. ( My hair). And if I look at t\such dogs pedigree I can see how it is put together and why and i may even see there some non Czech dogs.  If Jiri Novotny for  example took DDR studs and Czech females and after thorough testing he created now legendary  z Ps dogs  and all now respect those as Old style Czech dogs.( Now Jiri is nto the only one in Czech who promoted these dogs, but Jiri was most structured doing so.)  Now if that very same man ( Jiri Novotny) injects dogs in from Belgium or WG with the idea to promote and improve on what he creates then I will insists that those are the same type dogs but only better,... because the breeding progressed and eliminated many problems even so the type is the same. It is not expedient not to  introduce dogs of the type you like if you can improve on the type you are striving for even so they arenot from Czech. All GSDs originally came fro Germany. Right? But any German GSD man will tell you that Czech GSDs and German GSDs are quite different. So where is the point of the argument? There is non. Not in my book.   Once I asked Jiri which of his current studs and females would be better then what he had in 1980ties . And he said resolutely : "All of them ! And if it would not be so I would be fxking up and could bag it". This is from the mouth of a man who created these lines and he still does breed them.  Anther thing Jiri says.:"If there is nothing so special about these dogs, then why are so many people discussing them. I will worry when they will stop talking that would mean that I am breading dime a dozen dogs like everybody else. "

Thus it did not matter where the dogs came from then ,... and it still does not matter where the dogs on the pedigree came from now. What matters its the  way they are put together. That is what made them famous.  You can call it hype. Well so be it.  But people are not buying hype. They are buying dogs and they like what they get. That iw why we have these discussions.

Yes.  Some may think it is all hype. I really do not care what others people think and what motivates them  to say that.  As I say Lamborghini with 20-30% of it's parts from Germany  is still Italian sports car.   That is because it was designed and put together  by Italians in Italy  with their culture of speed and performance  and architecture and sense of proportions and beauty and balance and perfection. Can other nations build great  sports cars . Absolutely . But not Italian sports cars. 

 Prager Hans

 'I am here to maintain that it is not about pedigree but it is about type of the dog. '

^^ That is not the topic or question of the thred. Nor is the question 'are Czech dogs different? '.

" Most people who fight the  fact  that Czech dogs are different then German or Chinese dogs and claim that it is only  a marketing ploy are often the people who are not producing such dogs and see such dogs as a competition . "

No one on this entire thred claimed Czech dogs are not different from German or Chinese dogs, or that it is only a marketing ploy.
The topic is 'Czech pedigree define???'
What has been declared as marketing ploy is the claim that dogs are 'straight Czech, all Czech, full Czech,' etc. when the dog's pedigree has many GSL, wgsport line, east german ( ddr) within first five generations. Many times only a couple dogs actually bred for more than three generations in czech are the minority...so the topic is ALL about pedigrees.
Continue a conversation about type and cars and who breeds the best dogs, but that's not on topic, so I will bow out respectfully, as there is nothing much left to say on topic that hasn't already been said. Have a good day.

http://youtu.be/ONtGnzziWNw

To help make your point, and not down play your point;
This is the type you are calling Czech type. Correct? The two jiris showing what a 'real Czech dog' is. True, pedigree is irrelevant when this is the criteria for a Czech dog. But its not on topic.

Joan based on nothing more than the pedigree posted what type of dog would you say that is projected to be? Czech, wg, ddr, wg show line etc? We all know that it's a German Shepherd dog. Thanks for clarifying that. But what line would you say that dog would fall into based on pedigree? Or would you just call it a European mutt?

I'm genuinely curious. There isn't a right or wrong answer.

If 'we all know that it's a German Shepherd', why ask me if I would just call it a 'European mutt?' That seems contradictory and argumentative.
What pedigree are you referring to? As for type, are you asking type as in Type 1, Type 2, etc? Or do you mean type- type, as in type of dog other than a gsd, different than, or do yoy mean gsd? Look at the kennel names in the ped and you can probably tell by the type dogs the kennels in the ped produce. If its a missmash of 'types', then you would have to see the dog in person to see what traits he inherited predominantly. Hope this answers your question, being as I don't know what pedigree you're referring to, but this answer will apply to any ped.

I really hope the "kennels" shown in the vid are not "regular" kennels, but only temporarily used boxes during short training sessions ...