Discernment - Page 10

"Vk, you mean like, over qualified for a job?"

no i mean there are some real working roles where a dog is placed in basically a free fire zone, anything that manages to breach the well signed and secure barriers is expected to be bit by the dog regardless of whether it is an innocent or not, except for the guy that corrals it up by day and gives it food, water, shelter... the dog (usually three at a time)  is doing the job it is bred and trained for, so discernment?

gdsstudent,

I do not know if a dog has a conscience or not. Does anyone really know?

Discernment is linked to arousal. In the domestication process dogs who did not fit in to living socially with their human tribe were culled (eliminated). I can only imagine what would happen to a dog that harmed the human child. Yet these same dogs would pull down and kill game and at times were used in wars against enemies. This trait to discern between prey and child, between  friend and foe, between reaction and passiveness, etc. became genetic the same as coat color, size, temperament, etc. Those of us who owned GSD dogs in the 70's had the opportunity of knowing some of such dogs. Of course they were not all like that but they were a pleasure. I rarely see this quality in today's average so called "working dog" though I'm sure that there must be some around. 

I find it sad that some people today have never had the opportunity of owning a dog with balanced drives, great nerves and appropriate thresholds. Such a dog is usually discerning because not all that moves is prey to him and not all that comes his way is a threat.

here's a real example from the 80's, at least as I understand discernment: my grandmother's dog see's my cousins and I (as kids) roughhousing, it jumps in between us to separate us. My grandmother's dog see's neighbors's kid beating up my cousin, it shows the kid enough teeth for him to stop. My grandmother's dog see's an unknown dude inside the house, bites the heck out of the dude (the guy was trying to steal stuff, it turned out). My grandmother's dog see's a guy come into the house to talk to my grandparents, doesn't do anything except stare at the guy. The dog was never trained at anything, yet it discerned what situations warranted teeth and which did not. 

vk4gsd,

Yes there are jobs for dogs that require then to not discern but the every day LE, sports or companion dog would be safer with this trait.

if discernment is a trait you value (as i and most do) then you should select for it. how one selects for discernment i have absolutely no idea.

i think it is unfair on a dog to think it has high levels of genetic discernment between good and bad guys, excluding the adrenalin oozing case of an attacking or fleeing bad guy.   a lot of gsd pet owners go on and on about how there dog just "knows" who a bad guy in a crowd of 50 people all minding their own business is and there dog steers them away from him or eyeballs him....all fantasy imo.

Koach, you really have a handle on it, and it's partially because you have been exposed to what I am talking about. Your explanations are the same as what I am talking about. Doesn't mean there is right or wrong, but it goes to the dogs ability to read things. It's obviously not as prevalent or valuable as used to be, but it is a part of the difference in many of the breed today and those of earlier years. Of course many dont believe in the differences, so maybe it was not a good thing to bring up. 

Gustav,

Thank you for starting this thread. I find your questions are a cause for reflection and question the direction the breed is going in.
 

i have enjoyed the conversation on this subject. I like to be pushed to think outside of the box. I am going to propose another way to ponder this. If discernment is bred in or out of the GSD it must be genetic. If a dog can be trained to discern it is environment.  A few months back we debated if  the breed has changed or just that training has changed. I wonder if this is a rehash thread of this debate. A scout dog has a different job than a detection dog. My next question is, if it is important to have why is there no legacy? Surely some dogs still have it and can be bred back into the population. Or if it is trained why do trainers not bring out this valuable trait?

Now if you have a dog that is not 'soft', strong nerved, won't back down during a fight with a bad guy, is obedient, has an off switch, etc, etc...but, the dog is not social with strangers and will bite any body who comes into the yard uninvited. I know that in this part of the country, meth is a big problem and violent crime stems from druggies looking for a source of cash. I don't want any of my dogs welcoming a stranger onto the property from any direction. So, if a slime ball walks up who is not acting in a threatening manner and gets dog bit, are my dogs not discerning for biting without provocation? Is discernment instinct?

Discernment is still in the breed, it's not bred for because 1) it is not understood or valued as much, 2) it is not needed in show/sport in which is the foundation of 90% of breeding programs today, 3) it is subordinated to more important concerns like drive and gait, 4) the training of most breeders today is rote training and so traits that do well in this venue are more emphasized.
The breedt is different in many ways then it was 40 years ago, ( generally), but if never exposed to it then its difficult to see or believe. But over time, the things I have listed among other things have changed the nature of this great breed,IMO. But there are some remaining and it could be strengthened, but not in world of sport or show.
Herding dogs bred for generations of herding as work as opposed to trials really show strong traits of discernment.