If the Capt. was alive today - Page 10

I want to congratulate Preston for his well thought out and reasoned post.

The SV as a body is in good shape as far as the breed standard, administration and enforcement rules are concerned. They know that problems exist and the difficulties in dealing with these. The division within the breed is not beyond repair but the differences will take some time to resolve. No one person can resolve them with an overnight solution. It will take a few good men from all sides to bring about the changes that are needed.

Reading the posts by readers from America I think they have very little knowledge or understanding of the SV and how matters are dealt with here in Europe. I do not know how widespread these views are in the USA or how deep the divisions are but clearly the problems are not brought about by following the SV system. I would also point out that from what we see here about shows in the US the breeders, generally speaking, are coming up well short of what is required. Also, the comments regarding dividing the breed and forming new clubs using a different title is crass. It appears that the USA has taken a product , burnt it out, discarded it and then decided to re-brand it to begin again. If they did that they would probably use the same rules and regulations being accepted worldwide and which are all based on the SV. Back to square one. The other point in doing this is that they will begin again with exactly the same animals and bloodlines. In all honesty this way holds no credibility at all. Remember, Germany has a system, the SV, which is better than having no worthwhile system at all as is the case of the USA. Preston is absolutely right in his post when he says “The answer always lies in the hearts and minds of the breeders, trainers, buyers and judges, who each can decide to think straight and not be influenced by the economic incentives of the cartel which can tend to be stereotyped for business reasons.” and, well done to him for hitting the target.

For the breeders wishing to buy animals from German bloodlines I would suggest that they come to Germany and visit the Landesgruppen shows. They can get close up to the animals and assess for themselves the quality. The breeders will be only too willing to talk to them and they will be able to buy good quality animals at a reasonable price. Many German breeders and show people can speak some English or will have someone on hand who is able to translate. It is possible to visit the breeders at their homes who are involved in whatever side you prefer and see their dogs. I am sure that for anyone wanting to do this will find it to be a good investment and they will learn a great deal.

Many dogs that are sold overseas are just not worth the money that is paid for them. As long as the overseas market exists or negotiates better prices the situation will not change. Have a look at what goes on in other countries and find out how many of these animals produce a real top dog. The only surprise is how soon they fade away.

Mackenzie

 

The division within the breed is not beyond repair but the differences will take some time to resolve. No one person can resolve them with an overnight solution.
 

How about having well over a decade to aknowledge some very serious problems?  Better to address them swiftly now, or not bother at all.  The walls are crumbling.  That good dogs "can be" found within, just doesn't cut it.  The SV has been charged with stewardship of the breed and has been failing miserably and exponentially through time.


 

clearly the problems are not brought about by following the SV system.
 

Not as much the system itself, but certainly by the people who are in it.  The system doesn't corrupt, the people IN IT do.  A new system would require better proofing.

 

It appears that the USA has taken a product , burnt it out, discarded it and then decided to re-brand it to begin again. If they did that they would probably use the same rules and regulations being accepted worldwide and which are all based on the SV. Back to square one. The other point in doing this is that they will begin again with exactly the same animals and bloodlines.
 

Under new leadership, with likeminded new membership, with selected animals that are proper representations of the breed.  Yeah, and the point is?  RSV2000 isn't a USA organization, nor can the USA can't be blamed for the SV's actions/inactions, except as a market driver for european exports.  And dingo bloodlines just don't fit the standard at all.

Personally, if you care for the organization, I would at least press that they change their policy about crossmembership with the RSV2000.  If not, oh well, there will be plenty of membership dues from it's showline constituents to keep it running until the disillusioned appeal finally fades.

@ Ibrahim....we had these great looking, great working, great producing dogs....Marko, Mutz, and Bernd all had these traits. Top show breeders would not use any of these dogs today, because they are wrong color, too light, not extreme enough.....top sport people today would not use any of these dogs today because they are not over the top in prey, would not respond as well, and as quickly, to shake and bake training methods of today, won't have dynamic long bite........Nobody with a clue questions the correctness of those dogs in all respects.....but correctness has been changed. And when balance is moved one way it suffers in another. The people who like all of these things, that are necessary for winning in sport or show, are responsible for dogs like Marko, Mutz, and Bernd no longer being fashionable. They also yell the loudest when you point these things out because they want to continue to travel down these paths, although everybody not playing the show/sport game can see the damage.....Winning and money run the breed today....period!!! 

And when balance is moved one way it suffers in another.

THIS.  It becomes unbalanced. 

The people who like all of these things, that are necessary for winning in sport or show, are responsible for dogs like Marko, Mutz, and Bernd no longer being fashionable. They also yell the loudest when you point these things out because they want to continue to travel down these paths, although everybody not playing the show/sport game can see the damage.....Winning and money run the breed today....period!!! 

Yes.  The dog is not being used for a job like the old Schaefermeister's did.. where they were paid to handle large flocks of sheep that were a composite of small flocks owned by various people in a town or village.  If the Schaefermeister lost a sheep HE had to pay for it.. just as those who owned the sheep were paying HIM to care for them, grow them, lamb them  and fatten them!  The dog had a real job to do and the living of the Schaefermeister and his family depended on the dog(s). ONLY DOGS THAT WORKED LIVED AND BRED.  Others were removed from the gene pool. 

No one does this anymore.. and the dogs are used for sport and showing... and money is made FROM the dogs, not from the work the dogs do.

Gustav: "Winning and money run the breed today".  Excellent post!

IMO based on my  years in dog shows I'd have to say " money runs the winning " which runs the breed.  Unfortunately this could apply to many breeds.

Cphudson: "Sadly the breed seems like it is on the same path as most sporting breeds if things don't start to change."

Unfortunately, I think the breed has been on that same path for quite a few years.

Cassandra

There is really no reason to fight about what a GSD should look like according to max, beauty should never prevail over a sound body and mind, also today many working GSDs looks like the one max prefered, like this one,
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=862

All other major deviations from this type is probably not what the captain wanted. Regardless is SV has a good system it obviously hasn´t done much to save the breed spliting into two types. The SV system isn´t standard everywhere in europe, breedingregulations are controlled by the kennel club, at least here in sweden. But what many thinks is that the breedclub is focusing to much on show and not the pretty words in the standard about  how good the GSD is as a workingdog. At least if the breedclub also was a place for the working GSD, there wouldn´t be a need for alternative organizations and clubs of intresst that focus on the working GSD. As crossing between show and workinglines is seldom done it would be better to just accept there is two types that the breedclub could support, because it´s highly unlikely both sides can agree on what the original GSD was meant to be.

But what is a versatile GSD anyway? Is the temperamnet of a blinddog really comparabble to a policedog, is it realistic to breed for so diffent goals? Both SV and RSV has SCH-titles as breedingrequiremnt, don´t they, so is RSV so much about versality? In other countries where this is not a requirement the breedingdogs are either from some kind of sport or police/military/security-dogs. More versatile maybe, but most people seems to be happy with a GSD they could do sport and have as a companion anyway, so is this lack of versality really so alarming, many of you here are doing sport from GSDs from SCH-lines, a smaller part is doing policework but from dogs also with similar backgrounds.

Johan77,

I believe that the RSV2000 puts more importance on the results of their "sichtung" tests than on the dog obtaining a IPO3.

Here is such a test for a dog from a well known RSV breeder:
http://www.fasanerie2000.de/hunde/einstein_zum_ingobertuszwinger/Ingobertuszwinger_Einstein_zum_SZ2073997.pdf


Notice that in all RSV2000 documents, website, photos, etc that you will never see a "stacked" dog. I think that their message is clear.

There website now has more English content.

Ziegenfarm

youre so right gsd people just dont see it , they only see the good things about the breed.

kitkat

I to must agree with many of the old showlines are in pedigrees of some great working line dogs and the old showlines does has something to give because they did have alot of drive and where able to do alot of jobs back as good or better than only working lines

I myself have a showlines from old show lines with Arminius in the pedigree and he is and awsome working dog that could in his young days work all day long and still want more to do.

here are just a few of the many good working dogs with showlines behind

Lubeck vom der Mahlermeister



http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=466304

 Lsd de La Vallée de Montvaux 

Blitzen,

 How is the video not fair? The dogs being compaired are champions of the show ring. You would have a valid argument if they were just random dogs being compared to prove a point, but they're not.

Temperament - The breed has a distinct personality marked by direct and fearless, but not hostile, expression, self-confidence and a certain aloofness that does not lend itself to immediate and indiscriminate friendships. The dog must be approachable, quietly standing its ground and showing confidence and willingness to meet overtures without itself making them. It is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand. 

Johan said:

"But what is a versatile GSD anyway? Is the temperamnet of a blinddog really comparabble to a policedog, is it realistic to breed for so diffent goals?"



Is that the problem then?  The GSD was originally intended to herd, and protect, lead the blind  BUT, Schutzhund and police work have us 'sicking' the dog on the bad guy when he should only protect if under a threat.  The chasing and the 'sicking' (for lack of a better word) has made the sport group look for more prey needed in a dog then what the original job of the GSD was intended.

I'm talking only about the sport aspect, not the show arena which is a whole  'nother story/problem.