by LuluEvans on 06 April 2022 - 09:04
by LuluEvans on 06 April 2022 - 09:04
by Hundmutter on 07 April 2022 - 03:04
Its only the top section of the pedigree, the sires line, or "tail male", that has switched emphasis towards Working traits. The rest of the pedigree (Gen. 4 & 5) is basically German Show Breeding. Now, that makes it different from a lot of modern breeding outside Germany, (and a lot of the most recent dogs - first 3 Gens - are American bred and may contain a lot of 'pet' material) because every German breeder is still supposed to be breeding for dogs which can look pretty AND do some sports/ Work.
Opinions vary as to the success of the SV in maintaining that !
It depends what you want to do with your dog. If this is mainly a Companion animal and you may do a bit of competition at a hobby level, I think this is likely to be a good blend for you. If however you are desperate for a 'Podium Dog', you may need to think again, pick more carefully from stock being deliberately bred for its trainability, and probably pay more. JMO.
Also, if I was you, I'd be looking all the individual dogs up, here on PDB and on WINsis and/or Working Dogs EU, to get more info. on the Korung Reports, the show grades, the working titles and the health test results on them, all of which can give you a much fuller picture of their strengths & capabilties. AKC pedigree printouts don't do a lot for conveying information !
by LuluEvans on 07 April 2022 - 09:04
The sire appears to be east/west and the dam west.
This female herself is a thick built ,long stock coat. Great pigment . Her muzzle is a little short and her size overall is smaller than I personally like. But she is a solid dog.
If you have the time look up Ike and Daphne here in the database please.
To myself the pedigree looks rather impressive.
by LuluEvans on 07 April 2022 - 09:04
by Hundmutter on 07 April 2022 - 09:04
I did not imply it was a 'bad' pedigree, just that it clearly isn't deliberate 'breeding for a purpose' in the latter generations - and that I don't find it an exceptional breeding (from a Europen p.o.v. ). The show/work split seems to hold more importance for the American GSD community. You will find there is quite a lot of opposition on here to 'mixing the lines'; many of our more experienced members in doing IGP argue that this brings you the worst dogs for anything other than pets. My background is more in Showlines in the UK. I do not work my dogs in IGP, so I don't know whether that is always right. But I do accept it can put limits on the market for the sale of puppies - which I assume you are doing, or looking to begin doing ? You are asking after all for stud recommendations. Anyone suggesting these to you is likely to be asking - as I have - just what it is you want the dogs for ?
by LuluEvans on 07 April 2022 - 10:04
I would like to begin showing in conformation to begin and work my way into other fields.
Every litter has its less than show quality pups and those would be put into pet homes on a spay contract.
My parents were breeders many many years ago.
I don't want high drive dogs , but I do want functionally correct dogs . Shutzhund does not appeal to me at this point.
I believe I want a nice west show type stud to achieve some good conformation show prospects ?
I respect your opinion and knowledge. I am just starting out and am trying to learn pedigrees.
by Hundmutter on 07 April 2022 - 14:04
Only fairly rarely on here, Lulu, do we see anyone posting who wants to produce mostly from a conformation/Show perspective, that isn't glued to the AKC style of Showdog. (Even including those few Exhibitors who do actually work their dogs in one or another discipline.) If you were over this (my) side of the Pond, you'd be fine, you would be among many like-minded souls. But the, mainly American, PDB 'audience' tends to split down: to show-people, cheerleaders for the Ambred dogs that win at Westminster, vs the working folks who are more concerned with drives and performance than 'type' or what the dogs are constructed like. And it looks as though that reflects the market - although of course many pups will go to what are primarily 'pet' homes anyway, such is the nature of that market. In my observed experience, it usually takes a long time to develop a breeding kennel (anywhere) so successful that the majority of its buyers are lining up from the limited numbers of owners dedicated to Show or Work, or both. [No matter where you advertise !]
IMO USA 'Showing' - SV style - seems to be regarded as more of a necessary evil, much of the time. Secondary to the IGP side . Personally I'm for the "whole dog" and think that's what we should aim for, but I'm just trying to warn you of the opinions you may hear on here. I can think of only one current established breeder-member who cares for the look of what he breeds as much as their working abilities, and he is sometimes treated as though what he posts is irrelevent and incomprehensible. This Work v. Show atmosphere on the board isn't as uncompromising now as it has been in past years, but there are still some who will strongly put their view, often a bit impolitely.
So the preference of what you want your dogs to be able to do would seem to be relevent in the American market, and unless you make yourself very clear about what you are producing (or aiming for), there may be misunderstandings with buyers in the future.
Aside from the 'names' (VAs & V1s) among the (mainly Stud) dogs in both Sire & Dam's pedigrees, there seem to be a few "2nd rank" animals, breeding bitches especially, that are not - though not knowing individuals - famous for producing great specimens. But that is true of most similar breedings, and you still have every possibility of getting shapely stock from them, the correct proportions, dentition, angulation, gait, tail length and so on.
by Rik on 07 April 2022 - 22:04
lulu, on the top side, China was imported to the USA by a person who used to post here. I met her and had an off spring of her and Javir. It's just my opinion only, but I would consider that she was a very worthy GSD. Staatsmacht dogs show up in quite a few serious working dog pedigrees, which means absolutely nothing in later generations.
bottom side is show line, some I know nothing about and some line breeding on a dog or two not noted for improving character or having really solid character, but seems that is not your first goal.
I've spent a few decades showing and the best advice I have for show is breed from dogs that win shows. to do that, you are probably going to have to over look some things the GSD was originally meant to be.
I will add that starting with a dog that doesn't win shows and breeding something that does win shows is a fairy tale.
by LuluEvans on 08 April 2022 - 07:04
I do not wish to take away from the breed at all. I hope to produce visually correct specimens along with rock steady temperament. A dog that can turn on and off .
The german shepherds I meet in the general population of pet dogs are a far cry from that . They are obsessive hyper, untrainable , over sized , they are washed out with bad pigment short coats that resemble a hounds.
I stated I am not interested in shutzhund yet , however I do want to work in obedience .
Functional and correct conformation.
I don't believe that a West german show type is incapable of being a working dog. I believe it rests on the breeder and where their focus is.