Bitches not getting pregnant - Page 5

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by Nans gsd on 14 February 2021 - 22:02

I did my own raw feeding experiment and fed a completely raw diet to 5 dogs for 5 years, all grocery store bought meats and butcher meats no vitamin additives, just wholesome raw foods. My reasoning was an 11 years old bitch that was declining rapidly for no apparent reason; I with my own two eyes saw a definite difference in her decline within about 3-6 months for the much better; much healthier, more active and plainly a different dog. I fed her raw for 5 years and she lived to be 14 and half healthy/healthier years old. The others were quite a bit younger so they all did pretty well; however, not all did as well as I thought they should have done. It was a very expensive endeavor but I really can say I learned a lot; kibble can be terrible; but it can also be so so for some dogs. Sometimes a better choice than not. So my next few dogs did not do so well on raw, went to a pre mixed raw which was only OK. Then went back to kibble for the next 10 or so years which is now what I use mixed with some raw meat; have used and done it all.

My experience was definitely life-changing. Do not like to experiment on my dogs, only want what works; but to achieve that I feel they are all different and have different health needs.

However I do not feel the vet's have enough nutritional education to tell the public what works and what does not work, albeit kibble, raw or a mix of all types and brands. JMH experience.

 

Also to add a friend was feeding her Rottweilers a well known kibble food and kept having birth defects in her litter(s) which was another reason why I went on my extra journey to feed or add raw to my diets.  Now with additional advertising and a whole quest to promote kibble dog foods they have become one of the largest pet food industry dry food diets in the world;  are they excellent, not at nutrition but at sales'  YES.


Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 15 February 2021 - 05:02

Much of that Skeptvet site is anecdotal. I have read all the same arguments for both 'sides' rehearsed ad nauseam in every debate I've seen on the Raw versus Processed issue.  Reading through that link, the best one can do is borrow the Scottish Legal system's "Not Proven" verdict, as there is not one statement that absolutely PROVES  "Raw is the worst."  Its just that some people feel the risks are within limits that make it worthwhile for them, and others do not.

It is all very well to say that someone's dog eating bones "got lucky" if it never suffered a pierced or blocked gut or a broken tooth.  But that means there are an awful lot more "lucky" dogs about, than unlucky ones. So it does not mean giving chicken bones is automatically a bad idea, either.

Even the Skeptvet agrees that there is nothing wrong with feeding raw if done properly so that does not justify a sweeping "worst ever" judgement, either.  Like many here I have always said I was happy to mix certain elements of raw, fresh foods in with kibble for dogs I've fed. Using fresh or frozen tripe or (human grade) minced meat, eg ground beef, as PART of the diet is what lots and lots of dog owners do, some on a more regular basis than others.  I have never assumed that this sort of mixed diet is what everybody is doing when they proselytise about Raw and BARF etc, since when I have mentioned these additions I have often been shouted at for "not doing raw properly" and I have read many pieces written on the detailed combination of ingredients to follow a proper and consistent raw diet from scratch.

If you are happy to make that effort and can be bothered to store the foods properly, measure vitamins and other additives properly (or have a ready supply of e.g. appropriate plant life and rotted salmon skins - ho ho), and your dogs seem to 'do' better, I see absolutely nothing 'proven' to deter me, or anyone, from feeding raw.  But for my experience, I have not seen enough 'better' dogs, being raw-fed, to justify that effort. Would not attempt to dissuade anybody else.

Plenty of dogs get bowel impaction problems when NOT fed raw bones. One commercial kibble used to be notorious for the way it coated and built up inside of some dogs' intestines. Plenty of dogs manage to scavenge things that give them blockages and gastric upsets, or broken teeth, without any consent of their owners.

Claims that herbal / holistic sales are 'big business' disregards matters of scale; their share of the overall market, both for animals and humans, is still tiny compared to that of the monopolistic processed foods producers. As are the research budgets available. No wonder there isn't much research into the empirical 'benefits' of raw. As the Skeptvet concedes " Hopefully one day we'll have the real science to evaluate raw diets."


Rik

by Rik on 15 February 2021 - 09:02

my "anecdotal" experience pretty much matched Nans. at one point I was buying organ meat and large bones from a local processor so it was not commercial, just individuals raising beef for individual consumption. I doubt any of the animals were raised with added steroids. I was adding cooked veggies, sweet potato the main one. dogs did fine and were in very good "show" condition, which is the criteria I needed. Can't say it was any better than a high quality kibble. dogs on Eukanaba always looked very good, some said it was because Eukanuba had a high fat content.

I also did the kibble and "toss a chicken thigh in the yard" and they did fine on that also. and to add insult to injury, I tossed them still frozen, teeth were always clean and shiny. I know, that's anecdotal also but it is what it is.

and here's some more anecdotal nonsense, I did this for 30+ years, probably a few hundred shows, can't even estimate how many people I met and had conversations with. one of the first questions to come up is always "what are you feeding" "how are the stools"
etc. in all those years and probably a few thousand people, not one ever said "Science Diet".

Personally, I enjoy reading people's personal experiences.






Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 15 February 2021 - 09:02

Reasons I don't feed raw or feed bones:

- when I was growing up, I was told never, ever give your dog or cat chicken bones. They are hollow inside with sharp edges, and can easily pierce the gut. This went for both raw and cooked bones. But back then, birds were more mature when they went to market, so poultry bones were not nearly as soft as they are now, when birds are slaughtered at only 6 to 8 weeks of age.

- have an e-friend with a dog that's a heavy chewer. Dog broke several teeth on bones - over $3000 in dental work!

- used to work for a vet. Once watched a client's dog run up over a thousand dollars in vet bills while a bone worked its way through the dog's gut. If the dog had needed surgery, the bill would have been MUCH higher. Every vet out there will tell you they've seen this happen many, many times. Either this, or bones stuck in the teeth, in the throat, etc.

- had a cat that loved to catch birds. He was lucky to survive when a bone punctured his bowel.

- raw food often carries harmful bacteria that may make both the dog and its humans sick. Current slaughtering methods often result in the meat being contaminated with E. coli and other bacteria. Poultry are raised in such overcrowded conditions that salmonella, campylobacter and other pathogens are very common. The days when you could safely make eggnog from raw eggs are long gone... :(

- wild game and fish can carry dangerous parasites. Cooking kills the parasites. Freezing often does too, but not always.

- raw meat must be stored carefully to prevent it from going bad. This is difficult if you are travelling.

- despite what the BARF crowd claims, dogs are NOT wolves. They evolved from the wolves that hung around our garbage piles, scavenging whatever was available. This included starchy foods and vegetables as well as bones and other inedible parts of the carcasses of animals. Resarch has shown modern dogs can digest starches and carbs much more easily than wolves can. Also, years of selective breeding have altered the dog's teeth and jaw structure, making it much harder for them to chew raw meat and bones. If you compare the skulls, Lobo has much larger teeth, with deeper roots, and a much stronger skull and jaw, even when compared with dogs that are wolf-like in appearance.

I do give my dogs cow shank bones to chew on. It helps clean their teeth, and satisfy their chewing urges. However, these bones are too tough for them to break pieces off, so no risk of them swallowing the bones. Some people will say this is dangerous, but I haven't had a problem with it, though the dogs do like to leave the bones in the middle of the floor, where I trip over them at night!


by ValK on 15 February 2021 - 11:02


Sunsilver
dogs are still carnivore-scavenger albeit you're right to some degree - people does bring big changes into dog's genetic build up.
main difference is that carnivores in wilderness have much tougher selection process from mother nature and specimens with slightest insufficiencies simply dies out without leaving any descendants, who may inherit those insufficiencies and create wider pool of unhealthy animals. like its happens with dogs under sentimental/commercial conditioned care by the people.

and again i like to repeat my question - how in the past the dogs managed to survive and prosper for millennia, before processed dog food was invented.

Sunsilver

by Sunsilver on 15 February 2021 - 13:02

ValK, that's exactly my point. They ate what we ate, thousands of years ago. And that wasn't just raw meat and bones.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 15 February 2021 - 14:02

ValK, you might just as well ask "How come humans have survived, and some of them prospered ?" given the varied diets people live on the whole world round, including those who manage to stay fit and healthy despite eating crap.

by ValK on 15 February 2021 - 17:02

Sunsilver
"- wild game and fish can carry dangerous parasites. Cooking kills the parasites. Freezing often does too, but not always.
- raw meat must be stored carefully to prevent it from going bad. This is difficult if you are travelling."

if from such causes your dog got sick or die, its only shows that dog have insufficient ability to survive and this deficiency will be inherited, enforced, transformed into additional flaws and multiplied by descendants over generations.
isolating of dogs from more natural way of living only weaken them and makes vet bill more costly.

Hundmutter
that's wrong to compare animals to humans but if you insist on this... according to paleontologists there were human alike kinds who didn't manage to make to a present day. neanderthals was last kind of such.

Hundmutter

by Hundmutter on 16 February 2021 - 03:02

ValK Are you blaming the demise of Neanderthals and the like on ready-meals, burgers and chips / fries ???
What's wrong with comparing humans with dogs ? Both mammals !

Look, no-one is pretending a shit diet does not have its effects on human populations ... but I am pretty sure most or all of us have known somebody that succumbed to cancer or other horrible health issues, DESPITE having always eaten sensibly & well, been low consumers of alchohol, not smoked, &c. Likewise, I know people with VERY poor diets who have lived long unencumbered lives, produced healthy children & grandchildren. Diet is not a clear-cut issue, it is no good claiming one diet is 'better' than another because there are just too many variables.

by dentab58 on 16 February 2021 - 03:02

Got a bitch who have been mated since she was 26 months. She has her heat in every less than 4 months. We mated her in every season hoping for successful breeding but alas it all failed. There was a time when she her cycle turn into 6 mos. We mated her on the 9th day and fallow up every other day until 21st day of her menstruation. She whelps on 68th day after the 1st mating. She gaves us two females pups weighing about 700 grams. After this her cycle came back to less than 4 months. It were failures for another 3 years.





 


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