KNPV trouble - Page 4

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by Hired Dog on 15 June 2020 - 14:06

Apple, I have nothing to personally disagree with you in what you said.

by duke1965 on 16 June 2020 - 00:06

Wow @ apple, your last post kind of sums up why we are where we are with dogs today, people should understand there is a huge difference between correction and abuse

now you can throw around terminology and call it positive punishment, negative reward and all other shahula, but thats all marketing talk

if a dog shows undesired behaviour, its stupid to say, now im going to sweettalk him into different behaviour that suits my feelings better, NO, you just stop unwanted behaviour by pairing it with an unpleasant result for the dog, this is the cleanest way to get result, and it sticks in the brain of the dog ten times faster and stronger

now if people have a problem with level of correction, its to the club members to tell them it is not wanted or even functional to use to much, high or hard corrections, but its stupid to throw away the system at all. or look down at all clubs for the bad behaviour of a few or even a few more

clubs should deal with it inside the club,before it gets to be used by people who want to harm a person, but with doing that are harming the whole KNPV world


BlackMalinois

by BlackMalinois on 16 June 2020 - 04:06


Apple one of the biggest mistakes in KNPV  a lot  trainers focus too much on bitework and not control
They make the dog young crazy on bite work and later they they will work on control....and lot of times
its too late because they let the dog grow and conflicts are born.. Then they destroy the dog and take a new one and on and on.


IMO its better to begin with GSD when you start as a green handler KNPV , GSD are mostly better balanced in drives and control, but what happens fresh people start with the craziest X mals bloodlines and the trouble begins.When.... you can find a nice GSD its the perfect dog to start and learn for that long and difficult KNPV programm


by apple on 16 June 2020 - 06:06

Duke, the terms you call shahula are valid, scientifically supported constructs of operant learning. It takes some education to understand what that shalula is, much more so that yanking a prong or pushing a button on an e-collar. Those terms have zero to do with marketing. Marketing of what? How organisms learn? Rather than stopping unwanted behavior, teach desirable behavior. I believe corrections have a place in training. I use them everytime I train. But they are not harsh because of the time I have put in teaching the dog exacting what behavior I want him to display and corrections are for fine tuning. It has nothing to do with sweat talk or the handler's feeling's but it does have something to do with the handler/dog relationship. Punishment is not the cleanest way to get results. It might be faster, but not cleaner or more reliable. If you go back and read my posts, I have said the exact same thing as Black Malinois and have seen it with some Dutch imports. The handler in Holland does bitework everytime they train and no obedience and then when it is time to put control on the dog, extreme compulsion has to be used and the dog will never be the dog it could have been if the training was smart to begin with. That is where marketing comes in. Quick results with compulsion without actually teaching the dog what behavior you want allows for the sale of more dogs faster. Even with the craziest Mal X bloodlines, those dogs tend to have great food and prey drive and as pups are more than eager to work for food and a toy. But if they are being reinforced for being in too high a state of drive, the dog is not learning how to learn and pay attention. Using self discovery and letting pups figure out what behavior you are trying to shape is ideal for such dogs. For example, if they go to the place box, they get paid. If they don't, nothing happens. The pup quickly learns if he displays a certain behavior he gets paid and that makes him more eager to learn. But that approach requires very good timing, knowing how to provide a high rate or reinforcement and making sure you are reinforcing exactly the right behavior. In other words, the handler has to do a lot more thinking and planning and have a good knowledge base of operant learning.

by Hired Dog on 16 June 2020 - 08:06

Apple, all that you have described is fine, for someone who is interested, someone who was not brought up on compulsion based training who is now too old to embrace anything different and for someone who will actually want to keep the dog after its done training.
Indeed, a hard correction will shut down any unwanted behavior, like Duke said. Indeed, some dogs need them more then others, but, they ALL need them to proof after training is done.

There are some dogs that are better with a different type of relationship and training style then the 4 pillars you described earlier. Some will do just fine with it.

by apple on 16 June 2020 - 08:06

I believe that most all dogs with good to very good food and prey drive will do well with the approach I explained. Maybe "some dogs" don't do well with that type of training style because of environment and never having a foundation built using operant learning principles. It also depends on what age a pup/dog is started out, how many handlers the dog has been through and if the dog has temperament issues. It also depends on what the dog is being trained for. Some training requires teaching a dog to layer upon more and more complex behaviors. The context a particular behavior is trained is also a factor and the context will need to change as the dog's behavior more closely approximates the final goal. Otherwise, you set the dog up for failure and rely on compulsion because there wasn't a training program in place.

by Hired Dog on 16 June 2020 - 09:06

Those are a lot of "depends" apple. I have an open mind and look for an approach that works for "this" particular dog in front of me. Yes, a few things will work for 99% of dogs, but, I see the individual dog first.
Indeed, there are many variables like you mentioned, too many to get into, the subject was the KNPV program.
If I were training a dog for that program, I would select one that could handle the training, be easy to live with and not need so much compulsion that I hate myself daily.
Again, I use prongs and E collars, more E collar the last 10 years then anything else, but, I dont need a dog that needs 3 of them on at the same time to prove to anyone what a bad ass dog he is and what a bad ass handler I am.
Currently, I have the luxury of time with my 8 week old puppy I just got. He will learn at a good pace, the way I want to teach him, with a solid foundation.
The KNPV guys will do what they do, hopefully not get into any legal issues with the State and continue training the dogs they have. It is a great program as a foundation for police work, they just need to lay off killing dogs in the training field.

by apple on 16 June 2020 - 10:06

Apparently in the Netherlands, anyone can form a political party if they have enough people and go through the process. My understanding is that there is a PETA like political
party who is after KNPV when this recent episode of hidden cameras documented the abusive training leading to the disbanding of several clubs.

by Hired Dog on 16 June 2020 - 13:06

Apple, the same thing has been happening in Belgium with the NVBK for many years. What used to be the hardest dog sport in the World has been watered down in quality from what I have observed compared to 10-15 years a go.

emoryg

by emoryg on 16 June 2020 - 14:06

If and when punishment is used (regardless of intensity), make sure it is Pavlov who becomes your dog's best friend. This is especially important with the police dog tasked with criminal apprehension.





 


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