by GSCat on 15 March 2020 - 17:03
Perhaps what you are looking for are Czech working lines. With care in selection of the dogs, you could start with your foundation bitch and stud, so no "excess" puppies while you're breeding to get your foundation stock. There are 6 lines (Line 1 was almost extinct, but is being brought back in Czech). Each line has identifiable traits. Most Czech GSD are not exclusively one line, although there are some that are more linebred than others. My own dog is 2, 4, and 5, and she strongly exhibits many specitic identifiable characteristics of each of her lines. Some people advocate line breeding, while others prefer outcrossing based on parent characteristics. Homework and talking/listening to experienced breeders in both camps will help you decide which dogs you want as foundation stock and as later replacements/additions/retained for your kennel.
There are several posts on pedigreedatabase by Prager that are very informative about linebreeding and the traits of the different German Shepherd lines. Here's a discussion of bloodlines on pdb. The first post on page 3 by Prager briefly lists the specific characteristics of the different lines http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/community.read?post=857657-german-shepherd-bloodlines&p=3
Here is a discussion on another website that addresses the characteristics of the different lines https://alpinek9forums.com/viewtopic.php?p=42933#p42933
If you're interested in Czech GSD or Czech/Slovak GSD, I highly recommend Kennel Hrdinneho z Odvahy (Of Heroic Courage). They breed puppies that are suitable for the type of work you're looking at breeding for https://www.czechworkingdogs.com/
Additional information Czech GSD bloodlines https://www.jinopo.cz/bloodlines.php?lg=en
by xPyrotechnic on 15 March 2020 - 19:03
@emoryg it explains why i am really struggling to find the type im looking for, it was by luck i found Kathaleya and was probably by luck that she has this head.
by Koots on 15 March 2020 - 20:03
I will be looking to create police dogs specifically for street patrol, border patrol and property and personal protection. No handler aggression but stubborn in training....
Are you sure that you want to produce K9 dogs that are stuborn in training? To me that indicates not very good biddability of the dog, and makes the relationship between handler and dog a struggle. Do you realize that many K9 officers are rookie handlers, and that a stubborn dog would not be ideal? I would think that you would want to produce a biddable, easily-trained dog, for ANY 'work'. Just because a dog is easily trainable (not stubborn) doesn't mean that it cannot be a force to reckon with in 'real work'. Perhaps you meant 'resilient' and have 'hardness', but not 'stubborn'?
by TIG on 15 March 2020 - 21:03
OP I do not come here often anymore so if you could clarify for me a few things. Am I correct in that you are not interested in getting an actual dog?? That in fact this is an exercise in creating a fantasy kennel??
Whether fantasy or an exercise you hope will bring you to a dog you like - a few questions, comments if I may. Questions first. Do you or have you owned a GSD. If so how many, what ages, training etc and how long have you been in the breed and at what level?
FYI since asked it of you. I have owned GSDs since 1962. Done just about everything one can do in the dog world - Schutzhund, herding ( my 2 favorites), breed, obedience, tracking, agility etc. Have bred selectively a few times basically for my own replacement dogs but have had the advantage of many friends in the breed who had the means & opportunity to breed more than I could and often participated in the planning & evaluation of those litters. I have worked on the border, I have bred dogs used by the police and have had dogs with many of the characteristics you seek but you also seek traits I would never want to see in one of my dogs.
Also one of my passions in life has been the genetics of GSDs and the study of their pedigrees. I love to study the old "brewmasters" -- to look at the how's and probable whys of their breedings. Unfortunately today we have many folks with little true dog knowledge who breed solely based on podium success (both working & show) and with no long term plan in mind. Two old timer statements 1. You should be planning not only for this litter but also for the one 5 generations from now. 2. If the worst dog in your current litter is no better than the worst in your first litter you have made no true progress.
So my first comment is this. If this is fantasy only don't waste our time because it is an exercise in futility. Even if you hope in the end to find a dog it is still a specious exercise because what you MUST learn is that there is a time and place to play with pedigrees but in the end one MUST look up from the paper to the living breathing dog standing in front of you. That is where the most important essential information is. That is the reality you have to deal with and dealing with it takes knowledge, skill, experience, time, learning and art.
Yes art - creativity. My sister & mother were both talented artists and the standing family joke was those creative genes passed me right by since I couldn't draw straight line even with a ruler. Until one day based on some reading I was doing I had a light bulb moment. I called my sister and said you paint in oils & pastels, sculpt in stone and clay. I do it with dog genes. And I by no means compare myself to those old brewmasters but that is what they were able to do. To paint, to sculpt their vision of the German Shepherd - not on paper but in real life because what you see on paper may not be in the dog in front of you. Or that dog may be much more than you saw on paper and then the question is - is he a sport or will he reproduce himself? Some breeding partners are dominant for their traits, some blend in and some let the other partner shine but until you breed and watch and raise those pups up and the following generations too you will not know.
An example from the racing world -Secretariat. Early in his career he was dissed because he was not producing good running sons. He was a mare producer and the thorobred world is much like the Shepherd world imho placing too much emphasis on sire lines instead of solid tail female lines . But low and behold his mares WERE producers because they carried the big heart gene which can only be passed on by females. BUT at the time it was not known that his stamina and speed came from his x gene. That info came because 1 person paid attention to what was right in front of everyone. That is what good breeders do - they pay attention to what the living breathing animal tells them!
by TIG on 15 March 2020 - 22:03
I see Koots beat me to one of my comments. I too was going to say that stubborness is NOT a trait to be desired. Have you owned a stubborn dog? I have and you waste a lot training time convincing that dog it is in their best interest to learn on your schedule not theirs. Plus Koots is SO right about the skill level of most police dog handlers. When I was young I used to think the highest best use for a GSD was as a police dog until I learned how most departments run their dog programs. The only way I would place a dog as a police dog is if he will be owned by the officer handling him and that person is known or recommended to me!
Next question - how do you define border dog and street patrol - what tasks are you expecting them to do. Do you realize that a large percentage of departments want a dual purpose dog (to save money) and often administratively the search function is more valued for a variety of reasons.
"dogs that are balanced or slighly more defence based with a good level of civil agression they cannot be petted by adult strangers"
A dog that cannot be petted by strangers is not a balanced dog imho and is not a dog I want to own and sure as h*ll not a dog to place with a neophyte handler. They are a disaster waiting to happen and need to be managed their entire life. Even with management they are risky to have in an active family (which most cops have), and difficult at the vets among other places. Now I'm not saying they should be Goldens. The standard calls for aloofness (wh many present day owners have never seen and thus do notvappreciate) . The dog should tolerate contact not fawn over the person. Now if you are worried about your dog up and leaving you - aggression and distrust are not the ways to deal with that. Training first A platz is a platz. Secondly a truly balanced or I prefer clearheaded dog KNOWS what job they are doing at the moment and adjusts their behavior accordingly. Finally why not put social interaction on command - easy to do. I do it with mine. They are released to say hello so you contol and determine the interaction.
" i would want them to be mature quite early in age at 1 year and 4 months" Good god why!!!
First in large working breeds early maturity often brings with it fertility issues and definitely brings longevity issues. Seen this often in GSDs esp in show lines. Early maturity =:early death. Dogs like humans need time to grow up. Do you want a kindergartener to be your Doctor? We already put too much training and stress on young dogs that's part of the reason you see dogs that get locked in prey. If they have the heart, drives and courage and are given time to grow up they will have the stuff they need at 2-3. The old Germans had a network of friends and farmers that pups were sent to for the first year or two to grow up and experience life. Even the guide dog people still adhere to this model and let me tell you if they could speed it up they would cause dogs in and dogs out is how they make the moola.
Lastly you also do not want early maturation for the physical structure. We have hormones for a reason and there is a reason mammals experience puberty (and a16-18 mo old is smack in the middle of puberty which is why it's the classic age for them to land in a shelter). I may be old but even I remember moments of incredible stupidity and rash risk raking in the process of growing up.
All in good time. Bones, muscles, MIND etc etc NEED TIME TO DEVELOP.
by Hundmutter on 16 March 2020 - 04:03
TIG: BRAVO !!!
by duke1965 on 16 March 2020 - 05:03
the "sire line" was tought to be of great importance once, but current knowledge and common sense telss us that the female is of equal importance, and also the combination of breedingpair is of great importance
secondly, by current outcrossing culture, you can take all pups even from one litter(let alone one male that breeds a lot)and find they all have different package of drives/qualities, thus have different genetic buildup, famous example can be Ellute and Eros, full brothers, total different dogs, different results from breeding them, which, by the "lines" theory should NOT be the case
Now, for breeding dogs for purpose of LE and PP, already, these are two different type of dogs IMO in buildup, and im breeding for LE and PP longer time now and realised quickly that best PP prospects are not the best or easyest dogs to sell to LE
Civil agression, preydrive, environmental stability all are important things in suitabiity for LE, where environmentalls are the first and foremost important traits, no policedog if its not willing to, or afraid to go places
from drives and agression, preydrive is the easyest to reproduce and test for at young age, civil agression already is harder to reproduce if the female has none, and secondly harder to detect or select at young age, especially when not experienced
bottom line, look at your females first for desired qualities and if they have few or none of what you are looking for in work, but do have the looks, dont breed them, unless you are shooting for pet market
by ValK on 16 March 2020 - 10:03
i think OP misspoke meaning of thought and don't deserve to be so harshly criticized. with my english i do similar lapses from time to time too.
good thing is that OP not simply got the dog and start to experiment but asks the questions for start.
by xPyrotechnic on 16 March 2020 - 10:03
@TIG 1) i have not owned any dog at all but i have been researching gsd for 3 to 4 years and becuase of this community i have learnt so much, for example emoryg showed me that if i want a specifc structure what i must do, Centurian showed me how to analyse dog behaviours
I am doing this to learn how does a breeder plan their breeeding for 5 generation i was doing this to plan for 4 gen but it seems that i need more dogs, i want to learn how to breed for a specifc structure, but it seems that i am focusing on the structure too much and i need to pay attention more on the workability of the dog. there is no way of knwoing if the dog can work except through titles but even then they may not be good.
Perhaps a dual purpose dog would be better like a dog who can do street patrol and border patrol it is essentaily the same thing, a dog walking with his handler being suspicious of everything but the difference is that on the border the dog would bark or be aggressive to those who approach the border fence or wall and if such a person would try to come over the the handler with the dog would subdue them. In terms of the street patrol dogs through recent research i have done it is best if they can also be sniffer dogs to detect contrabands so you are right i should be breeding or looking to breed dual purpose dogs.
As with breeding dogs who should not be petted by strangers is the thing that most people in law enforcement breed for try touching Wibo van Leuween see what happens, i dont want overly social dogs they must be suspicious of everything but with wibo he is compeletly normal and kind to children but not to adults. The social interaction part was something i was thinking of teaching to the dogs the codeowrd i would have used is friendly
Perhaps not that specifcc age it takes about 3 years for a dog in the knpv to mature so maybe something less than that, the DDR was specifically bred with traits that make the dog mature early, all these thing sthat poeple say about the modern DDr dogs that they take a while to mature is becuase of poor breeding.
I will need to learn which dog is known to produce what traits and you are comepletely correct about looking up to see the dog in person to see their tmeperments but i am focusing on learning how to make a breeding plan for 5 generations first.
I will be looking to breed for LE but not all the pups would be able to do it so they will go onto homes that will use them for pp. I have took yours and other advice on focusing on the females for the desired traits and chose the dogs i will be using for this test breeding plan so i learnt that already.
by ValK on 16 March 2020 - 11:03
you have wrong insight about purpose and use of border dogs.
barking dogs for alerting purpose have been used only in former DDR on the span of border between East and West parts of Germany.
the dogs for patrol role were the dogs for absolutely different kind of purpose and application.