Any thoughts on this breeding for the USA Market - Page 2

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by Hundmutter on 07 February 2020 - 12:02

Brandi - please read my first post (not just my most recent one) in response to this OP, and I think all will become clear.

by Nans gsd on 07 February 2020 - 12:02

To even produce "one" more dog that could have seizures or episodes of that nature when you know in advance there are problems with epilepsy is unethical and personally I would not want to start my breeding career with that behind your  dog(s). sorry but I have witnessed seizures in dogs before and it is just devastating with temperatures rising sometimes to 110 degrees not only fries their brains but will take its toll on the dog(s) and eventually kill them, not a comfortable way to go for the animal or to watch for humans and there is NO cure... Nan


by Hundmutter on 08 February 2020 - 04:02

Well Charlie if you were in any doubt about the American 'market' reaction, given even the slightest risk of Epilepsy carrying on through, to this (proposed *) mating, never mind that the pups might prove quite "bouncy" rather than the couch-potato pet the (US) Showdog is regarded to be, you sure got an answer !

*You never did respond to my question about just why you want to do the breeding, when you don't already have a queue for the puppies ...


by charlie319 on 09 February 2020 - 23:02

Hundmutter: I did reply. I'd keep the male pick of the litter. Given whats "known" about Ballack and his genetics, with 379 sons and daughters, it would seem that, a lot of reputable breeders have "rolled the dice"... Or they know better than those here.

I would do full disclosure and guarantee on any pup against this peril.


by Hundmutter on 10 February 2020 - 04:02

Oho, so you are breeding the litter in order to produce one pup to keep yourself; ok; but my remarks still stand insofar as you really ought to be checking out the market in other ways than the WWW, including having buyers / at least some good homes for the rest of the litter lined up on your books already. There may after all be anything from around 4 to 12 of them !  And homes, given what you seem to be seeking to produce, that you can be reasonably sure are going to offer these pups sufficient exercise and training - not just be stuck in some back yard (no matter how large). Not mentioning this from the 'off' just makes your bald OP on here read like the hundreds of  'beginners' in the race to mate any dog to any bitch, just to make money, that we see raising topics all the time.

It's apparently not difficult to acquire German imports to do this with.

I'm glad you have committed yourself to full disclosure to your (eventual) customers. Suggest that you thoroughly acquaint yourself with just what Epilepsy in the GSD is like to live with when it occurs, in order that you can answer any questions. Some clues in the posts above.

FWIW I stand by the remark that were I in the US and seeking to buy a dog, this is a litter I would consider.  Being based in the UK, I have some faith in the abilities of the people operating the Amulree kennel, and have had opportunities before, to check out their use of an Eclipse line.  I was therefore less worried than TIG about the risk level; it is ONE line, and they seem to have been carefully avoiding 'doubling up' on it since (unlike eg Lornstone which feature a lot in the various old PDB threds on epilepsy, and so many of the 'coats and colours for max profits' mob, whose multiple lines to the UK dogs implicated are a horror story). Never assume, tho, that there is no risk at all.

by jillmissal on 10 February 2020 - 08:02

I'm guessing you'd keep the "pick of the litter" and do more breeding with it?

I would never ever buy a dog from someone this dismissive about a potential terrible health problem. A "guarantee" is cold comfort when a dog suffers and the owner's dreams are dashed.

We could eradicate faulty genetics from the gene pool if people would stop doing things like this. "But others do it so it must be fine" is some terrible reasoning.


by Koots on 10 February 2020 - 09:02

OP - is this your kennel name?

vom Pfeilspitzen Land


by charlie319 on 10 February 2020 - 20:02

Hundmutter: Yes. Depending on how he does, it would depend wether or not I would use it further. From what I'm reading, researchers seek dogs with epilepsy, and their relatives for their statistical models. This practice would seem to inflate numbers. It would be like getting your data on % of cardiac issues from only cardiac patients. It is a good way to get grant money. And part of the reason to do this test balloon query is to have those of you. who have looked into it, contribute your opinions. I'm with Hundmutter in that, but for the concern raised, it would be an attractive show litter.


Yes. That is my kennel name.


by Koots on 10 February 2020 - 20:02

From what I'm reading, researchers seek dogs with epilepsy, and their relatives for their statistical models.

With a recessive genetic trait, that is the ONLY way to study it and form statistical models, as the carriers may not express the gene but will pass it on.    Only the combination of the recessive trait from the sire & dam will result in a percentage of the pups statistically expressing the gene.    If you understood recessive genetic traits and their expression, then you would understand why those with epileptic dogs are so discouraging of the use of LINES which MAY be genetic carriers.


by charlie319 on 11 February 2020 - 06:02

Koots: I understand that it is the only way to study the condition. However , it is not the way to do statistics. Models are just that. A scientific guess. The more I read about this, the more I find that there's more they don't know than they do. They apparently have isolated a gene, but even at that there's no certainty expressed. While I'm not a geneticist, I know a couple. I'll have them look into it.

I'm sorry that you're going through the trauma of owning an epileptic dog. I have never seen one, nor known of any acquaintance of mine having one.

As for Ballack being a carrier, there's no indication of that being a fact. It seems to be all based on supposition and conjecture of things that are uncertain at best. Figo, Ballack's sire died of torsion. Yet, in reading threads on the subject, I see epilepsy irresponsibly blamed for it. This expressed ignorance set forth as fact is how urban legends become "common knowledge" and are just as harmful to the breed as any genetic trait.

Thank you for the frank opinions. I will take them under consideration as I study the matter further. For the time being I'll put this matter on hold until I have more information on the issue.


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