Any thoughts on this breeding for the USA Market - Page 1

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by charlie319 on 04 February 2020 - 21:02

Pending results on hips & elbows, l'm contemplating breeding these two late in the year... I'll be keeping the male POL... My concern is that it would be a Kirschental litter with strong Ballack and Ober overtones. Would there be interest in such a litter for show and sport? They may be a bit much for pet duty...

by GSCat on 05 February 2020 - 12:02

The U.S. market is as varied as anyplace else in the world. Pet, show, sport, service, therapy, SAR, herding, personal protection, entertainment industry, law enforcement, military, etc.

To me, the first consideration is whether or not a breeding improves the breed, or has a specific purpose toward this goal-- line preservation, breeding a trait in or out, strengthening something, genetic diversity, etc. Or is intended to produce a litter of puppies well suited for one or more purposes.

What are you specifically trying to accomplish with this breeding?


by Hundmutter on 05 February 2020 - 12:02

Personally I quite like the look of this combination; but I am not part of your market. I wish to ask: if you do not have at least some buyers queueing up who want this breeding, why are you breeding ? It isn't great 'market research' to put out a "product" with no idea if it is wanted.

Has he already perhaps impregnated the bitch in an 'ooops!' moment ?

You might care to site search here on PDB for the wealth of past posts on introducing a little 'Working' blood to a mix with Showline ...

although mostly that centres on combining S/L with "real" 'Working Lines', not just dogs from the better IPO/herding German kennels. As has been posted above, there is a huge variety of demand for a huge variety of capabilities within this breed.


by TIG on 05 February 2020 - 22:02

In the US. Find this to be a pretty much run of the mill hi-line breeding. See nothing that suggests they would be too much for pet people.

For me two concerns 1. - lots of SCH1 when I like to see 3s. Neither parent titled not even an AKC CD or HT or TD - all easily obtainable.

2. MAJOR Concern 3-3 linebreeding on Ballack. Search database and you will find discussions about epilepsy which names this dog as a concern. The reality is he carries Amulree lines which go back to known epileptic lines in England. Yes they are very far back BUT two things make epilepsy very difficult to eradicate from lines. First in GSDs it often does not show up until the dog is 2-5 ( males fit younger & harder) and thus many have already been bred by then and breeders dig in their heels and try to find other explanations and won't give up on related dogs cause after all THIS dog is not showing symptoms but that relates to the second thing. Willis's research suggested that in GSDs epilepsy fits a threshold model meaning that it is multfactored and a threshold of factors must be met before a dog fits. It is hypothesized that males fit at a lower threshold than bitches, So a " nonafftected" sibiling can in fact be carry many of the factors that contribute to epilepsy and can pass those on just doesn't have enough fo have seizures itself (which is a whole nother discussion - what can constitue a seizure). Epilepsy genes persist and persist and wander down through the ages just looking for like mates to line up with. Even if you decide to choose to take the risk with Ballack lines for pete's sake don't linebreed on them.

by Germanshpherdsetc on 06 February 2020 - 10:02

Well said AND thought out reply TIG very interesting read :)


by charlie319 on 06 February 2020 - 11:02

I plan to keep at least a male. Both parents are imports from Germany.

For what it's worth, Introducing working line blood would be a true game of chance, as you can't forecast what the dogs will produce. Today's WL dogs are a far cry from those in the '60's that did well in conformation. If I wanted that, I'd have bought that. The strong Kirschental content in both pedigrees does help.

Much as I understand the concern, I don't believe Ballack is epileptic, and as far as I know neither is either of the dogs fathers'. It is a factor already weighed and given the incidence rate, worth the risk.


by Hundmutter on 07 February 2020 - 04:02

Re: dogs with a strong 'working' component and the 'market' for them, you might be surprised when you read further about the willingness of a section of the breeding and buying public to play that 'game of chance' with the true 'working line' mix !

On GSL breeding towards, rather than away from, dogs with some IPO etc capability, there will be a few people like me among those who'd want to go with SV style showing and still be concerned with the 'look' of the dog as well as sports capacity (i.e. they don't think the German dogs of today are an insult to the breed as a working breed). Barring getting lumbered with a real 'screamer' we welcome a dog with a bit of energy; but they are not ideal for novice owners, so vet your applicants as to their experience.  As TIG said, nothing to indicate the pups would be extreme.

So across the board there are perhaps more buyers than you might think happy to take a stronger / more lively temperament, than they'd maybe get with a dog just bred as a Show dog; but just make sure you check they really are going to give the dog plenty to do.


The epilepsy factor:

A few breeders in the UK have taken the same attitude and gone on with breeding lines that  contain the genetic risk / known fitting dogs and/or producers of fitting offspring;  this unfortunately has led to cases continuing to appear at intervals where it might instead have eventually been bred out and lost completely.  So it is still with us, and causes heartbreak where it turns up.

Your 'weighing up' of the possibilities is fine as long as you are honest enough to warn buyers there may be a slight risk. Search Epilepsy topics on this Dbase. It is NO fun discovering you have an epileptic dog and having to manage the condition, as many have attested here. Does not help your reputation as a breeder in the long term either.  And as TIG warns, you should not go on to double up on that risk by  line-breeding.


by Koots on 07 February 2020 - 09:02

As an owner of an epileptic dog, which may or may not be due to genetic reasons (no known carriers in my dog's bloodline), I find the OP's cavalier attitude towards even suspected genetic carriers of the disease to be unsettling. Why would you even take that risk when linebreeding on that dog? Due to the genetic recessive nature of epilepsy, you are just playing Russian roulette with it in such a breeding.

My dog's Grand Mal seizures are distressing to witness, and each one is damaging his brain.   NOT something that I would want to pass on genetically, if even a remote chance.

by jillmissal on 07 February 2020 - 10:02

I have an epileptic dog. It really sucks.

Breeding when there is even a CHANCE of passing on this genetic flaw is really a poor idea and shows that the breeder really isn't interested in improving the breed or producing quality puppies.

The thing about breeding is that if you want to do it right and ethically, you sometimes don't get to do what you want.

I don't know about this particular line of dogs but if there is a chance that that dog passes on epilepsy, then sorry, this is one of those things you don't get to do and remain ethical.


by DuganVomEichenluft on 07 February 2020 - 10:02

Very scary when a "breeder" wants to risk a serious condition. There are SO many other dogs out there you could use for breeding rather than take that risk. I will remember this topic when the time comes that you're selling your pups. Taking this risk makes you no better than a backyard breeder. Sorry, but that's my opinion.
As for the WL. I'm sorry, but I see NO working line dogs in this pedigree. Am I missing something?



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